Free Will as Nonsense.

[blü 2]

It is not

In what sense is the will 'free', either theologically or scientifically?

Theologically, an omnipotent omniscient god made the universe, necessarily knowing in advance everything that would ever happen (and implicitly approving it), including everything you'll ever think, say or do. Such a god must therefore have moral responsibility for everything, since nothing can happen except according to [his] will, which since [he]'s also perfect won't have changed in the 14 billion years or so since [he] did it.

Scientifically, the brain works by complex interacting chains of cause+effect, likely interrupted at various very small points by events of quantum randomness, though such an interruption effect hasn't been shown.

One way or the other it doesn't look good for free will. How do you explain it? How can any brain make a decision independently of its mechanisms, conditioning and hormones, let alone its predestination?

 

[osgart]

In what sense is the will 'free', either theologically or scientifically?

Theologically, an omnipotent omniscient god made the universe, necessarily knowing in advance everything that would ever happen (and implicitly approving it), including everything you'll ever think, say or do. Such a god must therefore have moral responsibility for everything, since nothing can happen except according to [his] will, which since [he]'s also perfect won't have changed in the 14 billion years or so since [he] did it.

Scientifically, the brain works by complex interacting chains of cause+effect, likely interrupted at various very small points by events of quantum randomness, though such an interruption effect hasn't been shown.

One way or the other it doesn't look good for free will. How do you explain it? How can any brain make a decision independently of its mechanisms, conditioning and hormones, let alone its predestination?

The brain does it just fine all the time.

 

[Skwim]

The brain does it just fine all the time.

Now there's an answer for ya. Hardly a good one, but an answer none the less.

.

 

[Willamena]

...
One way or the other it doesn't look good for free will. How do you explain it? How can any brain make a decision independently of its mechanisms, conditioning and hormones, let alone its predestination?

Originally, free will set man in contrast to god. Either god was controlling all aspects of life, including choices, or man had some measure of control over his own choices. Later, hard determinism stepped up and took god's place, and the contrast became towards nature. The explanation by which some mechanism allows man to make his own decisions isn't independent of free will, it is free will.

 

[osgart]

Now there's an answer for ya. Hardly a good one, but an answer none the less.

.

Nonetheless its a true answer

 

[Skwim]

Nonetheless its a true answer

Then what's your evidence backing up this truth?

.

 

[osgart]

Then what's your evidence backing up this truth?

.

Experience. I dont lean on conformist data.

 

[Skwim]

Experience. I dont lean on conformist data.

If that's all then there's no reason to take you seriously.

.

 

[InChrist]

I wish I did not have free will. I would rather God took total control of me. I'd accomplish so much more.

Like Paul, maybe, who called himself a slave/servant of God, yet he still struggled with the challenges of his own will..

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! Romans 7:15-25

But in God's will through Christ he found freedom...

 

[blü 2]

The brain does it just fine all the time.

Then you're happy with scientific determinism (or if we allow QM randomness, quasi-determinism), I take it?

 

[osgart]

If that's all then there's no reason to take you seriously.

.

Anyone can put themselves to the test and discover their individuality. Everyone is an individual, no one has to conform their will to a group set. Numbers mean nothing in the case of individual free will.

Its self evident.

 

[osgart]

Then you're happy with scientific determinism (or if we allow QM randomness, quasi-determinism), I take it?

That means nothing to the experience of independency and autonomy.

 

[blü 2]

Originally, free will set man in contrast to god. Either god was controlling all aspects of life, including choices, or man had some measure of control over his own choices. Later, hard determinism stepped up and took god's place, and the contrast became towards nature. The explanation by which some mechanism allows man to make his own decisions isn't independent of free will, it is free will.

Ah, the Dennett approach ─ the practical over the strict theory. Not that I mind, but in conversations of this kind definitions are everything.

 

[dianaiad]

Christians are fond of the idea of Freewill. I'm suspecting that idea is a fantasy.

Define 'free will."

Some like to put the goal posts on rocket sleds when defining the concept.

As for me, I think that 'free will' is the ability to choose between choices available.

...........and no matter how constricted one may be, there is ALWAYS a choice that may be made, even if it's only how one thinks about something.

The guy tied to a post with a hood over his head about to be shot...even he has a choice. Does he scream? Does he pray? does he close his eyes or not? Does he resign himself to what's about to happen to him? Does he go cursing to his death?

Not much of a choice, but still, a choice, and it's his.

The guy who is told that he either robs his own bank...or watch his family die; he can make that choice and watch his family die. That the choice is available to him is evidenced by the fact that the consequences of choosing NOT to rob the bank are so horrific. After all, if he didn't have a choice, nobody would have to threaten him, right?

Indeed, the argument FOR free will (at least among the Abrahamic religions that have 'thou shalt nots' in the mix) is that there ARE 'thou shalt not' type commandments, complete with nasty consequences for those who disobey those. After all, if we didn't have free will, why threaten us with punishment for choosing badly?

 

[blü 2]

That means nothing to the experience of independency and autonomy.

No until we stop to think about it. Then the facts to the contrary start to pile up.

For example, how is a brain, or a soul, or God, capable of making a decision that isn't the product of a decision-making process, whether a reasoned and informed approach or tossing a coin? As you probably know, the brain's decision-making processes have been the subject of much research, particularly on whether the conscious mind is the decision-maker, or the last to know what the nonconscious mind has decided, the latter having considerable experimental support.

 

[Ellen Brown]

According to my evil plan, a few of you are madder than Hornets.

Of course we have a measure of free will. Do we use that as a way to discern the will of the Creator? Are we all caught up in New Testament religion? Does that mean the rest of the Bible is abrogated? Some have even abrogated important parts of the New Testament. How did those that did decide that those sections are no longer binding? What right did we have to do so?

It is tiresome to hear people, even those who say they have authority, "Turn off" certain requirements.

You do as you like. But as for me, the entire Bible is true and binding. Yes, even the 600 or so rules in the OT are in force. How will I obey all of them?

You figure that out for yourself, I'll do my own.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Define 'free will."

Some like to put the goal posts on rocket sleds when defining the concept.

As for me, I think that 'free will' is the ability to choose between choices available.

...........and no matter how constricted one may be, there is ALWAYS a choice that may be made, even if it's only how one thinks about something.

The guy tied to a post with a hood over his head about to be shot...even he has a choice. Does he scream? Does he pray? does he close his eyes or not? Does he resign himself to what's about to happen to him? Does he go cursing to his death?

Not much of a choice, but still, a choice, and it's his.

The guy who is told that he either robs his own bank...or watch his family die; he can make that choice and watch his family die. That the choice is available to him is evidenced by the fact that the consequences of choosing NOT to rob the bank are so horrific. After all, if he didn't have a choice, nobody would have to threaten him, right?

Indeed, the argument FOR free will (at least among the Abrahamic religions that have 'thou shalt nots' in the mix) is that there ARE 'thou shalt not' type commandments, complete with nasty consequences for those who disobey those. After all, if we didn't have free will, why threaten us with punishment for choosing badly?

My sympathies to you because you had to add more complexity to it all by adding the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. What?

Sorry, just in a funny, snotty mood.

 

[LiveByFaithNotSight]

Christians are fond of the idea of Freewill. I'm suspecting that idea is a fantasy.

do you believe in predestination? if not freewill the ability to choose what you wanna do then what? I'm genuinely asking to understand your stance

 

[shmogie]

In what sense is the will 'free', either theologically or scientifically?

Theologically, an omnipotent omniscient god made the universe, necessarily knowing in advance everything that would ever happen (and implicitly approving it), including everything you'll ever think, say or do. Such a god must therefore have moral responsibility for everything, since nothing can happen except according to [his] will, which since [he]'s also perfect won't have changed in the 14 billion years or so since [he] did it.

Scientifically, the brain works by complex interacting chains of cause+effect, likely interrupted at various very small points by events of quantum randomness, though such an interruption effect hasn't been shown.

One way or the other it doesn't look good for free will. How do you explain it? How can any brain make a decision independently of its mechanisms, conditioning and hormones, let alone its predestination?

Error right at the start, which invalidates all the rest. God does not know everything that will occur before it occurs. He knows what will occur based upon the laws he has made, e.g. gravity, relativity. He knows what will occur when He specifically chooses to bring something about. He knows every possible possibility of every possible situation. Except as stated as relates to humans, He does not know before they occur, the choices we will make.

I am quite amazed that you have assumed the mantle of defining the attributes of God.

I prefer Gods definition of his own attributes as found in the Bible.

 

[Willamena]

Ah, the Dennett approach ─ the practical over the strict theory. Not that I mind, but in conversations of this kind definitions are everything.

It's just the variation of free will that I grew up on, as no doubt did this Dennett person. Free will, in post-humanistic autonomic terms, is "the ability to act at one's own discretion" (free will | Definition of free will in English by Oxford Dictionaries).