Free will, Determinism, God, & aTheism

[Laika]

So you agree with all of that do you?

That's like asking whether I agree with the law of gravity. Whether I believe in determinism or not does not make it true. If it is true, It just is.

Determinism would be true regardless of whether I believed in it or not. How such knowledge is utilised by the state to create and enforce moral or legal rules is highly debatable. So my mind is open on the subject. But emotionally I find the cruelty of it repulsive.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

That's like asking whether I agree with the law of gravity. Whether I believe in determinism or not does not make it true. If it is true, It just is.

Determinism would be true regardless of whether I believed in it or not. How such knowledge is utilised by the state to create and enforce moral or legal rules is highly debatable. So my mind is open on the subject. But emotionally I find the cruelty of it repulsive.

But how the state uses/abuses such knowledge would then also be pre-determined, and thus it would make no sense to debate it. But seeing as though we DO feel it important to debate these things shows that we do believe it not to be pre-determined.

On the other hand free will would NOT be the same regardless of our belief. Because then our belief would freely affect the outcome. Thus it makes no sense to believe in determinism; because that would have no affect; but it makes perfect sense to believe in free will; because that does have affect.

Furthermore, in a completely determined universe, the very concept of free will would be impossible to even think. It would be like a computer being able to compute 2+2=5. It just cannot happen.

 

[Milton Platt]

I was reading recently how the Indian traditions associate free will with theism
whereas materialism suggests a deterministic paradigm.

Do you think there is validity to this pairing?

There are, after all many thinkers who see theism as deterministic
and aTheism requiring free will.

I find the link between these ideas intriguing.
Does anyone have any strong reasons either way?

Agnostic philosophers are encouraged to contribute.

Your survey left out the option of "there is no god and we do not ultimately have free will.

I believe this because the decisions we make are the result (subtly) of the experiences and information we have accumulated throughout life. When we think we are making objective decisions, we are operating under the influence of our life experience.

 

[Laika]

But how the state uses/abuses such knowledge would then also be pre-determined, and thus it would make no sense to debate it. But seeing as though we DO feel it important to debate these things shows that we do believe it not to be pre-determined.

On the other hand free will would NOT be the same regardless of our belief. Because then our belief would freely affect the outcome. Thus it makes no sense to believe in determinism; because that would have no affect; but it makes perfect sense to believe in free will; because that does have affect.

Furthermore, in a completely determined universe, the very concept of free will would be impossible to even think. It would be like a computer being able to compute 2+2=5. It just cannot happen.

Correct, the states use of such knowledge is predetermined by the research and activity that led us to accept it as knowledge. The state could only act based on the knowledge it has, but in using it to change society it can gain greater knowledge. What can be debated is to what degree determinism is based on knowledge (itself determined by prior experience) and the scope of its reliable application.

The utilisation of determinism is not an either/or problem or but one in which the degree of man's knowledge becomes the degree to which we have the power and freedom to change our behaviour and society. Belief in free will or determinism is dependent on philosophical preconceptions or "dogmas" about the scope of what can be known. So you're arguing against materialism as the source of deterministic theories of human behaviour.

 

[Coder]

I was reading recently how the Indian traditions associate free will with theism
whereas materialism suggests a deterministic paradigm.

Do you think there is validity to this pairing?

Interesting and thoughtful topic. I believe in God and that we have free will. We can think and make a decision. I also think that our free will increases as we become more aware that we do have free will. Given that as a concept, I think that it's important to also be aware of the many factors that affect free will: emotions, how free the country is that someone lives in, social/peer pressures, need to earn income...

 

[Repox]

I was reading recently how the Indian traditions associate free will with theism
whereas materialism suggests a deterministic paradigm.

Do you think there is validity to this pairing?

There are, after all many thinkers who see theism as deterministic
and aTheism requiring free will.

I find the link between these ideas intriguing.
Does anyone have any strong reasons either way?

Agnostic philosophers are encouraged to contribute.

I think it is one of the most important issues related to salvation. Assuming God requires obedience to His commandments, it becomes a freewill choice. Do you or do you not obey God's Commandments? It everyone's actions are determined, then we have a serious issue regarding salvation. How about Satan? If God's creatures have no freewill, then God is responsible for Satan's evil actions, or bad conduct. Without freewill there would be no real consequences. If you kill your brother, it would be alright because you are not responsible for your actions. It is a heavy duty theological issue.