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Free will exists, it's simply not inherent

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
It seems one the biggest issues with free will is how it can fit in with a mindless, uncaring, deterministic universe. The modern acceptance of things like material reductionism makes it hard for most of us to see beyond the mindless flow of nature, even to the point of ignoring our own consciousness and its impact.

Now sure, when you're born and growing up there's likely limited, if any, free will. We have to be taught things like emotional regulation, sharing, control of one's physical body, critical thinking and meta cognition, etc and so on. It is these things that lead to increasing amounts of free will. To illustrate, take a scenario where someone angers you and you want to hit them. In a truly deterministic universe you would hit them, end of story. But as humans, thanks to higher consciousness, we can recognize such emotions arising in us, and control ourselves rather than simply reacting in a linear way.

Of course there are massive limits on free will, there's unending external influences and laws of reality itself. This does not mean free will does not exist. People can recognize and overcome influence, it's this fact that has allowed our species to come so far. In a deterministic universe you die from illness, you don't understand it, manipulate nature, and create a cure for it. You attack when you are angered, you don't manage your emotions. You become terrified or mystified by natural experiences like thunder and wind, you don't come to understand and even harness them. It could almost be said that along with higher consciousness, free will is an emergent property.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Assertion: Free will exists,

Challenge: Justify your assertion.


.

Maybe you should have read the op?

Wehave to be taught things like emotional regulation, sharing, control of one's physicalbody, critical thinking and meta cognition, etc and so on. It is these things that lead to increasing amounts of free will. Toillustrate, take a scenario where someone angers you and you want to hit them. In a truly deterministic universe you would hit them, end of story. But as humans, thanks to higher consciousness, we can recognize such emotions arising in us, and control ourselves rather than simply reacting in a linear way. People can recognize and overcome influence, it's this fact that has allowed our species to comeso far. In a deterministic universe you die from illness, you don't understand it,manipulate nature, and create a cure for it. You attack when you are angered, you don't manage your emotions. You becometerrified or mystified by natural experienceslike thunder and wind, you don't come to understand and even harness them.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
It appears you're confusing free will with self control.

Will
is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires, and Free Will is to do so undirected by controlling influences.

Self-control is the ability to control oneself, especially in difficult situations.


.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
It seems one the biggest issues with free will is how it can fit in with a mindless, uncaring, deterministic universe. The modern acceptance of things like material reductionism makes it hard for most of us to see beyond the mindless flow of nature, even to the point of ignoring our own consciousness and its impact.

Now sure, when you're born and growing up there's likely limited, if any, free will. We have to be taught things like emotional regulation, sharing, control of one's physical body, critical thinking and meta cognition, etc and so on. It is these things that lead to increasing amounts of free will. To illustrate, take a scenario where someone angers you and you want to hit them. In a truly deterministic universe you would hit them, end of story. But as humans, thanks to higher consciousness, we can recognize such emotions arising in us, and control ourselves rather than simply reacting in a linear way.

Of course there are massive limits on free will, there's unending external influences and laws of reality itself. This does not mean free will does not exist. People can recognize and overcome influence, it's this fact that has allowed our species to come so far. In a deterministic universe you die from illness, you don't understand it, manipulate nature, and create a cure for it. You attack when you are angered, you don't manage your emotions. You become terrified or mystified by natural experiences like thunder and wind, you don't come to understand and even harness them. It could almost be said that along with higher consciousness, free will is an emergent property.
Because of the influences of a deterministic universe, I may feel like I want to hit someone, but I will not because of the influences that taught me "self-control" over my emotions...and thus, I'm still without free will...
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
It appears you're confusing free will with self control.

Will
is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires, and Free Will is to do so undirected by controlling influences.

Self-control is the ability to control oneself, especially in difficult situations.


.

You don't see how self control relies on personal will power?

Because of the influences of a deterministic universe, I may feel like I want to hit someone, but I will not because of the influences that taught me "self-control" over my emotions...and thus, I'm still without free will...

So would you say there is no cognitive processes involved with self control, it's just conditioning?
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
You don't see how self control relies on personal will power?
So would you say there is no cognitive processes involved with self control, it's just conditioning?
First, my comments do not necessarily reflect my own personal views--which on this set of issues is quite agnostic and always shifting...

But: "self-control" is caused by learning, which is rooted in other "influences" that originate outside of the individual and cause our behavior.

If we "choose" to not learn self-control, there are other external influences that we learn to listen to instead, and then respond accordingly.

A determinist would likely say that all "cognitive" processes are fully conditioned by circumstances.

Edit: even the internal processes of the brain, of "thought" are fully determined by biology and experience...
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Unless you are going to take an extremist position concerning free will, I fail to see the relevance.
Some people do take "an" extremist position; therefore it's relevant.

Some assume that there is no free will because it can all, in theory at least, be attributed to the interaction of sensory input with biochemical systems within the body and brain.

Others assume that because of various factors, humans (at least) have the ability to choose other than biochemical and environmental factors direct, perhaps because they "have" a soul, "are" a spirit, or possess the emergent property of consciousness and free will.

Still others assume that the two positions are compatible, and that we can be both deterministic in some ways and in possession of free will in others.

As far as I've been able to tell (and it's not something I've spent a lot of time thinking or worrying about), no one has satisfied all as to the solution to the problem.

The OP presented a particular argument, one confirming free will as apparently an emergent property; I countered with the extreme argument that says there is no free will at all. Why would the issue of spontaneous erections (or arousal, in females) NOT be relevant to the question of determinism and free will?
 
It seems one the biggest issues with free will is how it can fit in with a mindless, uncaring, deterministic universe. The modern acceptance of things like material reductionism makes it hard for most of us to see beyond the mindless flow of nature, even to the point of ignoring our own consciousness and its impact.

Now sure, when you're born and growing up there's likely limited, if any, free will. We have to be taught things like emotional regulation, sharing, control of one's physical body, critical thinking and meta cognition, etc and so on. It is these things that lead to increasing amounts of free will. To illustrate, take a scenario where someone angers you and you want to hit them. In a truly deterministic universe you would hit them, end of story. But as humans, thanks to higher consciousness, we can recognize such emotions arising in us, and control ourselves rather than simply reacting in a linear way.

Of course there are massive limits on free will, there's unending external influences and laws of reality itself. This does not mean free will does not exist. People can recognize and overcome influence, it's this fact that has allowed our species to come so far. In a deterministic universe you die from illness, you don't understand it, manipulate nature, and create a cure for it. You attack when you are angered, you don't manage your emotions. You become terrified or mystified by natural experiences like thunder and wind, you don't come to understand and even harness them. It could almost be said that along with higher consciousness, free will is an emergent property.


We learned early in the last century that the universe is not deterministic and this is noticeable at the molecular scale of electrons changing state in the course of the chemical actions in the brain that manifest our consciousness, but rather, by the Heisenberg principle, there is only a probability that an electron under an adventitious perturbation will change state given an interval of time under that perturbation. This is where physics itself has gone as far as it can go to predict exactly what will happen in the brain and this indeterminacy is a measure of free will. It might be minuscule and the probability of a sequence of electron transactions that go into an expression of will may be overwhelmingly close to 100% that someone will decide on a course of action, but it is never exactly 100%.
 

McBell

Unbound
Some people do take "an" extremist position; therefore it's relevant.

Some assume that there is no free will because it can all, in theory at least, be attributed to the interaction of sensory input with biochemical systems within the body and brain.

Others assume that because of various factors, humans (at least) have the ability to choose other than biochemical and environmental factors direct, perhaps because they "have" a soul, "are" a spirit, or possess the emergent property of consciousness and free will.

Still others assume that the two positions are compatible, and that we can be both deterministic in some ways and in possession of free will in others.

As far as I've been able to tell (and it's not something I've spent a lot of time thinking or worrying about), no one has satisfied all as to the solution to the problem.

The OP presented a particular argument, one confirming free will as apparently an emergent property; I countered with the extreme argument that says there is no free will at all. Why would the issue of spontaneous erections (or arousal, in females) NOT be relevant to the question of determinism and free will?
Thus you are taking the tangent into another tangent.
One which I have no interest in.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
It appears you're confusing free will with self control.

Will
is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires, and Free Will is to do so undirected by controlling influences.

Self-control is the ability to control oneself, especially in difficult situations.


.


actually you seem to think that free will is improbable because of controlling influences. they aren't. something that influences just limits the free will to a more narrow outcome. a gordian knot doesn't remain a gordian knot forever. you just have to cut through the small mindedness
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
It appears you're confusing free will with self control.

Will
is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires, and Free Will is to do so undirected by controlling influences.

Self-control is the ability to control oneself, especially in difficult situations.


.

The controlling influences are what is being managed by self control. It is exactly a choice that counters controlling influence.

Because of the influences of a deterministic universe, I may feel like I want to hit someone, but I will not because of the influences that taught me "self-control" over my emotions...and thus, I'm still without free will...

So you naturally will control yourself, it doesn't involve self awareness and will? Wouldn't that just be... well basically magic?

Can erections happen when you're not sexually aroused? | Go Ask Alice!

One wonders what spontaneous erections have to do with free will?

Well when you get one are you forced to deal with it? Or can you calm down such desire and do away with it? When a dog wants to get some, they go for it. Seems you apparently believe humans are the same?

No such thing as free will.

Any reasoning?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
actually you seem to think that free will is improbable because of controlling influences. they aren't. something that influences just limits the free will to a more narrow outcome. a gordian knot doesn't remain a gordian knot forever. you just have to cut through the small mindedness
I believe free will doesn't exist because it hasn't been shown to, and that it doesn't make sense.


.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I believe free will doesn't exist because it hasn't been shown to, and that it doesn't make sense.


.


you got two paths, or ways they are 1. the negative, or selfish path, or the 2. positive , or the selfless path.

free will in action, it's your choice to believe whatever.
 
Whatever Free Will is in the religious context, If we we indeed have 'free will' it has not provided our species with the wisdom or moral reasoning to create a sustainable, just and peaceful culture construct. And if we are to ever discover a way off the slippery slope towards our own self made hell, that must be the prime imperative for humanity. The Final Freedoms
 
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