Skwim
Veteran Member
But you asked another question and made some rather ill-conceived remarks, and being the good, helpful fellow that I am . . . .
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Free will
- Thread starter Raithie
- Start date
I didn't mean anything by not including the rest of your statement, I was just adressing where you said what if we were already the perfect creation.
and if God really is that selfish to let so many suffer in the world, when he could stop it all with the snap of his fingers, I would rather go to hell than worship him.
The rest of the statement clarified the point; I've been suggesting that we are what we are supposed to be at this time. Not the embodiment of "Godliness" or absent of moral impurity, but simply what we are meant to be at this time. Hopefully, as we evolve and advance, what that means will improve dramatically.
And you are welcomed to your opinion of God; I'm not trying to argue you out of it.
Raithie
atheist
Too bad that includes so many people suffering through horrendous anguish and despair. Doesn't sound like all that great of a plan.
Most of what you propose God has already done.
God created the first man and woman without sin. They were perfect, and could keep God's laws flawlessly if they so chose. They enjoyed perfect health and had the prospect of living forever. Only after sin entered into the world did imperfection and an inclination to do wrong afflict mankind. (Genesis 9:21) God has promised to undo the terrible harm done to all of us by Adam, by means of the ransom sacrifice of the last Adam, Christ (1 Corinthians 15:45). Human perfection will be realized when, under God's kingdom rule, the earth and mankind will be restored to the condition Adam forfeited by his rebellion. The Bible explains at Romans 8:20,21 "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."
As to why God has not yet brought complete relief, the Bible answers that question also.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Why can God not simply will it to be true?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Oh he can, it's just that he chooses not to because. . .er . . . . . . . . . HEY! is there a Christian in the room? Need some help over here.
jml03
Member
I don't know why. Simple as that. But, He doesn't run things by me before He takes action.
Regardless of faith or lack of faith, one has to realize that we all have freewill. We are free to be on this site. We are free to express are beliefs here. We are free to shut it off. Freewill exists. I am grateful for freewill. I am grateful that God loves me so much to give me freewill.
jml03
Member
Funny!
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
"Freedom is slavery." Surely giving up free will requires exercising will?
He did will it, and has brought about what He willed. He sent his only-begotten Son at great cost to himself to pay the equivalent price for what Adam had lost for us.
God does not violate his own laws, but he always acts in perfect justice. If he ignored or broke his own laws, we could not have confidence in Him. But he is perfect in justice as well as love, and always acts within the boundaries of what is right and just.
Rather than find fault with God, how much better that we appreciate that as Isaiah 55:8-11 says "For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, is the utterance of Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, and seed is actually given to the sower and bread to the eater, so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it."
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
God created perfect beings before mankind: angels
The difference between us and angels is that we have free will to believe or disbelieve, obey or disobey
Angels on the other hand can only obey God
God created us with free will so that we believe in Him and obey Him by our own free will, not because we have no choice
See the difference?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
From a thread I wrote some time back.....
Man was created a little less than the angelic.
There is a long standing belief that the fall of the angelic..one third of heaven...was brought on by a division....an argument.
God...having made Man...a little less than the angelic...said to the angels...
"Man is fragile...follow after him and see to it, that he dash not his toes...nor his head."
One third of the angelic said "nay".
"For that Man is less than we are... He should be made to serve us."
There is nothing wrong in that logic.
Man does so unto lesser creatures in every way.
We... chain our dogs, and expect their loyalty...keeping to one master...even though it is their nature to run free in packs, and hunt at will.
We.... saddle and bridle our horses...and expect them to take us wherever we desire...and we break their spirits that they will obey.
We.... cage little birds..that they sing for our pleasure...but the little creature sings for a mate he will never find. There will be no nest...no offspring...and he will die in his solitude.
We...readily kill anything that cannot be made to serve us...any disobedient animal.
A fight broke out. Brother angel against Brother angel.
One third of the angelic fell from grace...losing their positions in heaven.
They lost their place because of an argument...concerning something... that looks like you.
They want you dead.
Two thirds of heaven lost their Brothers because of an argument...concerning something...
that looks like you.
Do you not bear resemblance to the one third fallen?
Do you not perform unto lesser things...and your fellowman ...as you will?
Are you not concerned..what...or who...will be standing over you...
When you lay down to breath your last breathe?
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People have 'suffered for their beliefs' even enduring prison or concentration camps. They had no ability to leave their circumstances only to try to keep integrity to their beliefs without compromise.
Jesus on the other hand suffered for his beliefs, but Jesus had the power to break free of his captors. Jesus suffered because he knew the value of his sinless life would be a ransom sacrifice for our sinful life.
Sometimes people think a sickness is their 'cross they must bear'.
People do not choose to pick up a sickness. All get sick.
So when a person decides to follow Jesus he will suffer.
Not because of sickness, but because of walking in Jesus footsteps.
Man has dominated man to his injury [Ecc 8v9]
God did not cause that suffering. Man did that by his own choice to do so.
Satan does not want any to suffer for keeping integrity and faithfulness.
He wants all to break integrity, and according to Job [2v4]
Satan challenges all of us by saying 'a man' meaning or including each of us.
If God wanted us to suffer he would not have provided Jesus to be a ransom for us so that starting with the time of Jesus 'glory' [Matt 25vs31,32] righteous ones will be separated from the wicked [Psalm 92v7] to keep on living right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth. Those resurrected at that time [Acts 24v15] will not suffer because the happy climax of Revelation is that God will wipe away all tears, outcry, pain and even death will be no more.
[Rev 21vs4,5]
So there will be a reversal of all suffering into the same healthy human perfection of mind and body that Adam originally had at creation.
-Rev 22v2.
jml03
Member
That's a wonderful way to phrase that. I have never looked at it that way. When you say "there will be a reversal of all suffering into the same healthy human perfection of mind and body..." My mother has always said that we will see those that we've crossed paths with and not told about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit - they will be crying and we will feel the pain and guilt of it. But then, all our tears will be washed away, because what would Heaven be if the people we loved weren't there. We will not know they are not there after that. So it makes sense the way you worded it, and the way others have posted on this thread that "perfection of mind". Just washed away and peace. Wonderful post.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Sorry....can't buy that last post....
Especially if you lean toward the teachings of the Carpenter.
Instead of quoting disciples and followers....
try quoting the Carpenter Himself.
Many of the parables end with misfortune.....
Some with a weeping and gnashing of teeth.
BTW...Jesus did not deliver salvation by His death.
He delivered salvation by the life He lived....by the parables He taught.
Especially if you lean toward the teachings of the Carpenter.
Instead of quoting disciples and followers....
try quoting the Carpenter Himself.
Many of the parables end with misfortune.....
Some with a weeping and gnashing of teeth.
BTW...Jesus did not deliver salvation by His death.
He delivered salvation by the life He lived....by the parables He taught.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
If an omniscient, omnipotent God designed man, this would imply that there is a reason behind sickness. Why must people get sick?
A ransom to who? God? Some concept of "sin" which is greater than God? If a businessman meets a friend who wants his produce, the businessman can simply give it to him, free of charge. The businessman giving the friend money with which to pay for the produce is simply redundant.
I'm saying it's a possibility that the suffering will serve a purpose, not that we suffer in order to fulfill a purpose.
Not for a purpose, but I sincerely hope the suffering of the Jews through out history has served a purpose. To think that a group of people have been systemically enslaved, degraded, ostracized, and the victims of wholesale genocide for absolutely no reason other than their religious beliefs and for it to have no purpose other than to be marked down in history is enough for one to lose all hope in mankind.
I hope that their story has taught humanity the dangers of blindly following the cries of a few charismatic leaders; the folly of sitting idly by while evil is being carried out, whether it is by a person, a regime, or a nation; and the end result of unrestricted bigotry and hatred.
No, I don't think God wants us to suffer. Nice bit of drama, by the way.
Your welcomed to your opinion; I'm not trying to convert you.