• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Free will

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If an omniscient, omnipotent God designed man, this would imply that there is a reason behind sickness. Why must people get sick?
A ransom to who? God? Some concept of "sin" which is greater than God? If a businessman meets a friend who wants his produce, the businessman can simply give it to him, free of charge. The businessman giving the friend money with which to pay for the produce is simply redundant.

Sickness is a result of human imperfection. Adam sinned. Adam became imperfect. Imperfect Adam passed down to his children [us] the same imperfection he then had. Can't pass down to your children what you do not have in the first place. Imperfect Adam, as family head, passed down to us human imperfection of mind and body a.k.a. sickness.

A ransom to who? Rather a ransom 'for' who? Jesus ransom sacrifice paid the ransom price for us. We are the 'who'. Can you resurrect yourself after death? Can you resurrect another? If not, then you need Jesus to do that for you.
 

TEXASBULL

Member
Sickness is a result of human imperfection. Adam sinned. Adam became imperfect. Imperfect Adam passed down to his children [us] the same imperfection he then had. Can't pass down to your children what you do not have in the first place. Imperfect Adam, as family head, passed down to us human imperfection of mind and body a.k.a. sickness.

A ransom to who? Rather a ransom 'for' who? Jesus ransom sacrifice paid the ransom price for us. We are the 'who'. Can you resurrect yourself after death? Can you resurrect another? If not, then you need Jesus to do that for you.

Have you ever seen Jesus resurrect someone? Have you seen ANY dead person resurrected, in heaven, hell, or are they all dead and rotting.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
God created perfect beings before mankind: angels
The difference between us and angels is that we have free will to believe or disbelieve, obey or disobey
Angels on the other hand can only obey God
God created us with free will so that we believe in Him and obey Him by our own free will, not because we have no choice
See the difference?

If angels can only obey God then how do you explain the disobedient angels of Genesis 6vs2,4; Jude 6?__________

If angels can only obey God then how do you explain the covering cherub [angel] that was perfect until he decided of his own free will choosing to sin?
Ezekiel 28vs14,15

Satan was not always a Satan [resister] and Devil [slanderer] but a perfect angel that chose to go bad by getting Adam and Eve to sin along with him.

Isn't Satan a sinner? _____ Since Satan told the first lie [Gen 3v4] that Eve would not die, that is why Jesus could call Satan the 'father of the lie' [John 8v44] and no sinner has life within himself [immortal].

What is the penalty for sin? Isn't it death?_____ So Satan being a sinner must pay the price of sin which is death. That is why Hebrews [2v14b] mentions that Jesus will destroy Satan along with all the wicked of Psalm [92v7] that will be destroyed or annihilated forever.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Have you ever seen Jesus resurrect someone? Have you seen ANY dead person resurrected, in heaven, hell, or are they all dead and rotting.

Yup, dead and rotting just like Jesus friend Lazarus of John [11vs11-14].

According to Scripture no one goes to heaven to die in heaven, so there would be no need for a person to be resurrected in heaven.
The death problem is on earth.

According to chapter 12 of Revelation Satan is cast out of heaven before he dies, or is destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2v14 b.

According to Acts [2vs27,31,32] God resurrected Jesus from hell [gravedom].
The Biblical hell is: the common grave of mankind according to Jesus.
Jesus likened death to a deep sleep [John 11vs11-14]. So Jesus would have believed while he was buried in hell that he would be unconscious as Ecclesiastes [9v5] says of the dead. Besides Jesus and Solomon the Psalmist also believed the dead sleep the sleep of death. [6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4]

We will not see the resurrection [Acts 24v15] until Jesus millennial reign over earth when during that thousand years of reigning over earth the dead will hear Jesus voice and, like Jesus friend Lazarus of John chapter 11, will come forth with the prospect of everlasting earthly life. Life to heaven first for some, then life right here on a restored paradise earth as God originally purposed for mankind.

Pagan hell is not the Bible hell. Hellfire in Scripture stand for the fiery destruction of Gehenna which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where dead things were destroyed not kept burning forever.
That is why Psalm [92v7] speaks of, not burning, but the destruction [annihilation] of the wicked as being forever.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Sickness is a result of human imperfection. Adam sinned. Adam became imperfect.
Surely a thing that can become imperfect isn't perfect to begin with? (And what was God doing putting fruit that causes genetic damage in the garden, anyway?)

And physical sickness is caused by microorganisms. Those have to have come from somewhere.

A ransom to who? Rather a ransom 'for' who? Jesus ransom sacrifice paid the ransom price for us. We are the 'who'.
A ransom involves A taking B prisoner in order to force C to give him something. If we're the B, who are A and C?

Can you resurrect yourself after death? Can you resurrect another? If not, then you need Jesus to do that for you.
I wonder which would be faster: Awaiting Jesus' arrival an unspecified amount of time in the future, or developing bio- and nanotechnology for 150 years or so? Ressurection is not some magic, impossible goal. It merely requires a very good understanding and very fine control of human biology.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Surely a thing that can become imperfect isn't perfect to begin with? (And what was God doing putting fruit that causes genetic damage in the garden, anyway?)
And physical sickness is caused by microorganisms. Those have to have come from somewhere.
A ransom involves A taking B prisoner in order to force C to give him something. If we're the B, who are A and C?
I wonder which would be faster: Awaiting Jesus' arrival an unspecified amount of time in the future, or developing bio- and nanotechnology for 150 years or so? Ressurection is not some magic, impossible goal. It merely requires a very good understanding and very fine control of human biology.

Perfection can become imperfection because perfection [either heavenly or earthly] does Not mean immortal.

Neither angels nor humans were created immortal.
Continued life or everlasting life depended on obedience to God.
The trees stood for that obedience.
So the trees in themselves were not going to make the change.
The change was made by free choice to disobey.

A [Satan/Adam] took B [us] prisoner to sin and death.
C [Jesus] will free us via resurrection.-Romans 6v7; Acts 24v15.
Adam lopsided the balancing scale and perfect Jesus balances it.

Jesus must agree with you that resurrection is not magic, impossible goal.
It merely requires a very good understanding and fine control of human biology. Since 'all things' according to Col. [1vs15,16] were created through Jesus then he would know all there is to know in order to resurrect someone.

It is not a question of 'faster' but a matter of 'patience' on God's part.
God is patient with us because he desires none to be destroyed. -2Pt 3v9 .
So God is not s-l-o-w respecting his promise, but patient with mankind.
God promised Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed. In order for that to happen we first need to be born. If there was divine intervention into mankind's affairs before the command at Genesis to fill [populate] the earth was fulfilled we would not be here. That has to come first.

We have now reached the high point of the last days of badness on earth marked by the selfish distorted form of love as described at [2Tim3vs1-5,13] in contrast to the Christ-like love defined at [1Cor13vs4-6]. Coupled with that is the proclaiming of the good news of God's kingdom [Matt24v14] that is now being done on a global, world-wide scale as Jesus said it would be before the end times of all badness on earth comes. Earth's problems show that man can not successfully direct his step and we need God to step in and he will.
God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth [Rev 11v18 B] by having Jesus as crowned king of his kingdom usher in global Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Perfection can become imperfection because perfection [either heavenly or earthly] does Not mean immortal.
My idea of a "perfect" lifeform would include immortality, since not dying is preferable to dying...

Neither angels nor humans were created immortal.
Why not? If you have the resources and knowledge to make life from scratch, making it immortal is not difficult.

A [Satan/Adam] took B [us] prisoner to sin and death.
C [Jesus] will free us via resurrection.-Romans 6v7; Acts 24v15.
Adam lopsided the balancing scale and perfect Jesus balances it.
But why does Jesus need to be incarnated at all, when God can simply free us with no effort on his part?

It is not a question of 'faster' but a matter of 'patience' on God's part.
God is patient with us because he desires none to be destroyed. -2Pt 3v9 .
So God is not s-l-o-w respecting his promise, but patient with mankind.
I didn't mean the speed at which God takes action; I meant that we will arrive at "miracle"-level nanotechnology ourselves, and, if my ideas of the timescale are correct, (I've heard the judgment will be in 500-1000 years) we will invent that technology ages before God's judgment. (The computer was invented less than 3 generations ago. Think what could happen in another 5.)

Earth's problems show that man can not successfully direct his step and we need God to step in and he will.
No. Man being unable to direct himself is a consequence of being stuck on an Earth with finite resources. This is true of any sufficiently large collection of people of any design. Yet the Earth's finite resources was a decision of God's, so why did God set us up to fail deliberately?

God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth
No single one of us is ruining the Earth. In fact, no single one of us is making more than a negligible poke at the Earth. It's the fact that there are 7 billion and rising of us that is the problem.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
My idea of a "perfect" lifeform would include immortality, since not dying is preferable to dying...


Why not? If you have the resources and knowledge to make life from scratch, making it immortal is not difficult.

Your soul needs to form...before the ingredient of immortality is added.

But why does Jesus need to be incarnated at all, when God can simply free us with no effort on his part?

Sometimes...Man needs to be told to his face.
Kinda hard to do that, without a representative.



I didn't mean the speed at which God takes action; I meant that we will arrive at "miracle"-level nanotechnology ourselves, and, if my ideas of the timescale are correct, (I've heard the judgment will be in 500-1000 years) we will invent that technology ages before God's judgment. (The computer was invented less than 3 generations ago. Think what could happen in another 5.)


No. Man being unable to direct himself is a consequence of being stuck on an Earth with finite resources. This is true of any sufficiently large collection of people of any design. Yet the Earth's finite resources was a decision of God's, so why did God set us up to fail deliberately?

Chemistry has rules. If mortal life is the goal, the rules of chemistry hold.

No single one of us is ruining the Earth. In fact, no single one of us is making more than a negligible poke at the Earth. It's the fact that there are 7 billion and rising of us that is the problem.

I wrote a thread titled 6billion will die
You might be interested.
Otherwise...nice post and frubals
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
My idea of a "perfect" lifeform would include immortality, since not dying is preferable to dying...
Why not? If you have the resources and knowledge to make life from scratch, making it immortal is not difficult.
But why does Jesus need to be incarnated at all, when God can simply free us with no effort on his part?
I didn't mean the speed at which God takes action; I meant that we will arrive at "miracle"-level nanotechnology ourselves, and, if my ideas of the timescale are correct, (I've heard the judgment will be in 500-1000 years) we will invent that technology ages before God's judgment. (The computer was invented less than 3 generations ago. Think what could happen in another 5.)
No. Man being unable to direct himself is a consequence of being stuck on an Earth with finite resources. This is true of any sufficiently large collection of people of any design. Yet the Earth's finite resources was a decision of God's, so why did God set us up to fail deliberately?
No single one of us is ruining the Earth. In fact, no single one of us is making more than a negligible poke at the Earth. It's the fact that there are 7 billion and rising of us that is the problem.

The earth can support more than 7 billion. It is world-wide distribution of wealth and resources that is more likely the problem. Mankind can ruin earth in more than a physical way, but also in a spiritual way. There was great moral damage before the Flood or Noah's day and Sodom and Gomorrah.
Ancient Israel was destroyed by the outside political world for abandoning the pure moral worship as outlined in Scripture. God used the political world as his 'ax' to bring such false worship to a ruin. Today the world's religions have polluted the world with immoral worship contrary to God's will and have run afoul proving itself false to God and his Word. So God will use the political world as a military 'ax' to turn on the world's religious sector. We are not set up to fail. God always warns first before he acts. We are being warned today that as individuals we can choose to live by God's Golden Rule or not.
What would the world be like if all lived God's moral standards and lived by the Golden Rule? __________
Surely it would not be failure.

Absolutely, - Not dying 'is' preferable to dying.
No doubt then you like the words of Rev [21vs4,5] that: death will be no more?
Think: Was Adam offered immortality? No. Adam was offered everlasting life or eternal life. Life that was dependent on condition. Obey God and live forever. Disobey God and be forever dead. The dust to dust thing.
Someone that is immortal is death proof. Adam was not death proof.
However, Adam could continue to live forever if obedient to God.
Jesus offers us the same deal. Everlasting or eternal life starting with the living at the time of the start of Jesus millennial reign over earth.

Jesus needed to resurrected. Like us, Jesus could not resurrect himself.
Only God could resurrect Jesus. God could only do that if Jesus died faithful.
Jesus died faithful and that is why Jesus was resurrected to life in the spirit realm or heaven. God is freeing us. Except for those of Matthew [12v32] , Romans [6v7] applies to us. Death 'frees' or 'acquits' us from sin.
However, we still can not resurrect oneself or another. Since God gave Jesus the power of the resurrection then through God then Jesus will resurrect us.

What is unique to our time frame is the possibility of being still alive at the time of divine intervention of Matthew [25vs31,32] and remaining alive and keep on living right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth with having the prospect of eternal or everlasting life as was originally offered to Adam.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Sometimes...Man needs to be told to his face.
Kinda hard to do that, without a representative.
Unless you appear in person.

Ancient Israel was destroyed by the outside political world for abandoning the pure moral worship as outlined in Scripture. God used the political world as his 'ax' to bring such false worship to a ruin. Today the world's religions have polluted the world with immoral worship contrary to God's will and have run afoul proving itself false to God and his Word. So God will use the political world as a military 'ax' to turn on the world's religious sector.
This is useless as a tool to convince people what the true "word" is. If God wants us to follow His word, whatever it may be, he should give us a single shred of verifiable evidence that seperates it from over 30,000 other (apparently incorrect) variations on the word. The fact that 30k variations exist shows us that that evidence doesn't exist.

We are not set up to fail. God always warns first before he acts. We are being warned today that as individuals we can choose to live by God's Golden Rule or not.
What would the world be like if all lived God's moral standards and lived by the Golden Rule? __________
Surely it would not be failure.
One problem: It is not possible to live by the golden rule in a finite environment. Psychology quite clearly shows that a governmentless society cannot function with more than approximately 150 members.

Life that was dependent on condition. Obey God and live forever. Disobey God and be forever dead.
"I'll give you food if and only if you love me in return. No, this doesn't cost me anything, not even time, so I'm not even asking for recompense for anything. I'm just going to withhold a necessity from me because you don't love me."

Would you like to explain why we shouldn't consider God narcissistic?

God could only do that if Jesus died faithful.
God is supposed to be all-powerful. Why should it matter if the body was faithful or not, when it is merely an issue of repairing biology?

However, we still can not resurrect oneself or another.
This is purely a matter of engineering. Ressurecting from recent death is only another medical challenge, exactly the same as a heart transplant, or prosthesis.

What is unique to our time frame is the possibility of being still alive at the time of divine intervention of Matthew [25vs31,32] and remaining alive and keep on living right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth with having the prospect of eternal or everlasting life as was originally offered to Adam.
Out of curiosity, when is this supposed to happen?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
'Jack'-

The writings of the Bible writers appear in person. Not as a literal person of course, but nevertheless, the writings are tangible in black and white, face to face.

As for a single shred of verifiable evidence please see: John [13vs34,35].

Not governmentless society. Agree good government is needed. When Adam obeyed God he was under the best government possible. By Adam's disobedience Adam was replacing God Rule with People Rule. Globally we see the results of that choice.
Jesus is the crowned acting king of God's kingdom, or royal government, that will reign over earth for one-thousand years.

Withhold necessary food? How many trees are on earth?
Two people could eat all they wanted to satisfaction from all of the trees except one.
One tree belonged to God. If you had a generous neighbor that said you could eat from all his trees but one, would that be a hardship?
Think of a huge candy warehouse chock full of all sorts of candies. Now if you were told it's all yours except for one piece of candy would that be a hardship?

More than repairing biology. Job [2v4] we are all challenged by Satan that no one would prove to have faithful integrity to God.
Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar, so can we.

More than recent death. Abel's been dead a l-o-n-g time besides Abraham, Noah, David, etc.-Acts [24v15; 2v34]

A curious mind is an inquiring mind that wants to know which is a good thing.

How can you tell when a woman is pregnant?
Can't see baby but see a growing tell-tale sign.
We see bad world conditions
We see people's bad attitudes and actions
We see bad political circumstances
We see God's people world wide telling others [Matt 24v14] good news that soon there will be the solution of all badness on earth.
Add all that together and the answer is: "soon"
'Soon' or within the foreseeable future.
We don't know day or hour, but world conditions [especially bad religious conditions] show we are in the 'spring' of Jesus illustration of Matt [24vs 32,33] nearing the 'summer' season of Jesus taking action. 1st Thess [5vs2,3] informs that when they [ruling powers] are saying "peace and security" that is a final signal that Jesus will act.
 
Last edited:

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
The writings of the Bible writers appear in person. Not as a literal person of course, but nevertheless, the writings are tangible in black and white, face to face.
True, but they're not meaningfully verifiable. It would be infinitely more convincing for the 4 billion or so non-Christians if God wrote "I apologise for the inconvenience" in flaming letters on Mount Everest or something. If God truly wanted his word to be spread, why can't he appear in person to spread it?

As for a single shred of verifiable evidence please see: John [13vs34,35].
May I use this as an exemplar of circular logic? :D When you're discussing the validity of a document, quoting that very same document is nonsensical. (And the passage is about John telling his disciples to love each other. How does that let us sort out which of 30,000 variations on the Word is correct?)

Not governmentless society. Agree good government is needed. When Adam obeyed God he was under the best government possible. By Adam's disobedience Adam was replacing God Rule with People Rule. Globally we see the results of that choice.
Jesus is the crowned acting king of God's kingdom, or royal government, that will reign over earth for one-thousand years.
God is not the best government possible, because why would someone disagree with the best government possible? And people's rule works perfectly well with few people. And why would the "best possible" government punish someone for an act that harms no-one?

One tree belonged to God. If you had a generous neighbor that said you could eat from all his trees but one, would that be a hardship?
No. However, I think it's entirely justifiable to question why the neighbour deliberately put the tree there.

More than repairing biology.
Do you believe in a soul or similar? Because as far as natural physics can determine, ressurecting someone is simply repairing their biology.

More than recent death. Abel's been dead a l-o-n-g time besides Abraham, Noah, David, etc.-Acts [24v15; 2v34]
The reason it is restricted to recent death is because the brain starts to degrade very quickly. If you have some way of preserving the brain, or a method of time travel, people can be resurrected from any time.

How can you tell when a woman is pregnant?
Can't see baby but see a growing tell-tale sign.
Tell that to the ultrasound technicians... :D

'Soon' or within the foreseeable future.
The foreseeable future includes quantum computers capable of thinking 1000 times faster than you in a thousandth the space. The foreseeable future includes regeneration of limbs and organs. The foreseeable future includes the technological singularity. Jesus' miracles are primitive compared to what could be achieved quite easily not so long into the future.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The foreseeable future includes quantum computers capable of thinking 1000 times faster than you in a thousandth the space. The foreseeable future includes regeneration of limbs and organs. The foreseeable future includes the technological singularity. Jesus' miracles are primitive compared to what could be achieved quite easily not so long into the future.

And which is greater...
A miracle contrived by technology that took centuries to develop and deploy?
Or a miracle made by the will of the practitioner?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
They are indistinguishable to the spectators.

Really?
Not wanting to take this digression too far....

What if the full potential of 'will' cannot be allowed until after.....
we can be trusted with the level of 'will' we have at hand?

Can God....trust you....with the powers of heaven?
Or does greater power corrupt?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Yes. Are you sure God doesn't have millienia of technology tucked up his sleeve?

Can God....trust you....with the powers of heaven?
Or does greater power corrupt?
Power over what? Allow me to pull out a relevant sci-fi adage: "When anything is possible, nothing is interesting." When you have infinite power in a private world nobody else needs to see, what gain could you be corrupted by? There are no resources to gain.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Yes. Are you sure God doesn't have millienia of technology tucked up his sleeve?


Power over what? Allow me to pull out a relevant sci-fi adage: "When anything is possible, nothing is interesting." When you have infinite power in a private world nobody else needs to see, what gain could you be corrupted by? There are no resources to gain.

Here in this life....you can manipulate....you have hands.
In the next life....what have you to work with?

But if your will conflicts against the will of someone else....
Then whose will is greater?

Most people believe there is only one Creator.
That stands to reason.
Reality is kept intact by having an Almighty.

But what about you?
If your will has no effect? what life will you have in the 'hereafter'?

Still, to possess some ability...don't you think it may be needful....
to prove yourself...trustworthy?
 
Last edited:

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
But if your will conflicts against the will of someone else....
Then whose will is greater?
I'm not entirely sure the question makes sense. In what way will our wills conflict that has any consequence beyond us not associating with one another anymore?

Still, to possess some ability...don't you think it may be needful....
to prove yourself...trustworthy?
No. God has a perfect theory of mind. Therefore, attempting to prove myself something I am not is an exercise in futility. An omniscient God will know my personality exactly, and an all-loving one would understand exactly how much I could be trusted, without any input from me. And you completely skipped the thing about there being no corrupting influences when you're omnipotent.

Most people believe there is only one Creator.
That stands to reason.
Not really. A lot of inconsistencies actually disappear if "God" isn't a single entity.
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
Sickness is a result of human imperfection. Adam sinned. Adam became imperfect. Imperfect Adam passed down to his children [us] the same imperfection he then had. Can't pass down to your children what you do not have in the first place. Imperfect Adam, as family head, passed down to us human imperfection of mind and body a.k.a. sickness.

A ransom to who? Rather a ransom 'for' who? Jesus ransom sacrifice paid the ransom price for us. We are the 'who'. Can you resurrect yourself after death? Can you resurrect another? If not, then you need Jesus to do that for you.
An interesting perspective. I have a couple of questions for you.
  1. Who set it up so that Adam could fall so hard?
  2. The Bible says that God is infallible and knows for certain what we will do in the future. Given that he knew Adam would sin, was it possible that Adam would not have sinned?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
An interesting perspective. I have a couple of questions for you.
  1. Who set it up so that Adam could fall so hard?
  2. The Bible says that God is infallible and knows for certain what we will do in the future. Given that he knew Adam would sin, was it possible that Adam would not have sinned?
Hey, no embarrassing questions. :tsk: God did, the Bible said it, and that should be good enough for anyone.
url
 
Top