Free will

[URAVIP2ME]

An interesting perspective. I have a couple of questions for you.

1. Who set it up so that Adam could fall so hard?
2. The Bible says that God is infallible and knows for certain what we will do in the future. Given that he knew Adam would sin, was it possible that Adam would not have sinned?

All of creation whether angelic or human were created [by their Creator] to have free will. Free choice to choose to live by God's Golden Rule or not.

It's not a set up. It's a choice of whether a person, by their own free choice, will do what God says is the right way to live.

Where does it say in Scripture that God knows what we will do in the future?

Isn't the great crowd of people 'without number' at Revelation 7vs9,10?
Since it is an 'unknown number' that are saying 'salvation' then that leaves the number up to each person's choice. Even Deuteronomy [30v19] says to choose what you want. Joshua [24v15] chose for himself to serve God.
People corrupt themselves- Deut [32v5]. If God wanted all foreknowledge then there would be no reason for him to invite us to seek him as Deut [4v29] says.

This means Adam sinned by choice. Adam and Eve knew disobedience meant death. From dust back to dust. [Rom 5vs12-19] They were warned disobedience meant death. Obedience meant eternal life or everlasting life. This was not being immortal. Neither angels nor humans were created immortal. Continued life [heavenly or earthly] means being obedient by choice.

We being imperfect because of Adam can sin by mistake. With angelic creation and perfect human creation they can only sin on purpose.

Hope this is of some help.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Where does it say in Scripture that God knows what we will do in the future?

As you know, the Bible is through and through a book about predestination. Not only is God described as all-knowing (which would include what we will do in the future) but it is clear that God made some of us to be saved and some of us not to be saved.

Romans 9:20-23
" "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

 

[Thief]

I'm not entirely sure the question makes sense. In what way will our wills conflict that has any consequence beyond us not associating with one another anymore?

How about....
Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.
Sit at God's table after making objection to grace and belief?
I can drag and drop several essays for demo.


No. God has a perfect theory of mind. Therefore, attempting to prove myself something I am not is an exercise in futility. An omniscient God will know my personality exactly, and an all-loving one would understand exactly how much I could be trusted, without any input from me. And you completely skipped the thing about there being no corrupting influences when you're omnipotent.

So...you would have nothing to say....at that moment when judgment comes your way.


Not really. A lot of inconsistencies actually disappear if "God" isn't a single entity.

This is not true. Inconsistency would be the result.
What if the devil had the power of creation?

I don't mind that you rebuttal.
But your technique is one of constant refute as if that is your goal.
If the angels are watching...I think they are....
Isn't free will something you can lose?

 

[PolyHedral]

How about....
Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.
Sit at God's table after making objection to grace and belief?
I can drag and drop several essays for demo.

Do you mean "sit at God's table" in a metaphorical sense? Because physical hunger is one of the first things I'd expect to be gone from "heaven".

So...you would have nothing to say....at that moment when judgment comes your way.

What is there to say to a God that is all-knowing, and so can anticipate your every objection?

This is not true. Inconsistency would be the result.
What if the devil had the power of creation?

The problem of evil disappears, as do the inconsistencies in God's presented personality in the Bible. (one moment he says to start wars over land, next he wants everyone to forgive one another.)

Isn't free will something you can lose?

Free will cannot be defined meaningfully in a way that does not contradict an all-knowing God.

 

[Thief]

Do you mean "sit at God's table" in a metaphorical sense? Because physical hunger is one of the first things I'd expect to be gone from "heaven".

What is there to say to a God that is all-knowing, and so can anticipate your every objection?


The problem of evil disappears, as do the inconsistencies in God's presented personality in the Bible. (one moment he says to start wars over land, next he wants everyone to forgive one another.)


Free will cannot be defined meaningfully in a way that does not contradict an all-knowing God.

And this rebuttal will leave you with nothing to say...later on.

There's a parable about someone who had nothing to say....
It ended with a weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[PolyHedral]

I don't understand why I should have anything to say. Could you explain that?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

As you know, the Bible is through and through a book about predestination. Not only is God described as all-knowing (which would include what we will do in the future) but it is clear that God made some of us to be saved and some of us not to be saved.

Doesn't James write [1vs13-15] showing each is drawn out by his own desire and not God's desire? God's desire according to 2nd Peter [3v9 b] is that all should come to repentance. Why would God have that desire if it was not his will?

We are the clay, and as the clay we can choose to be soft and pliable or hard and brittle. If we harden our hearts as did Pharaoh in Exodus then God can not mold us [through his Word] into a useful vessel.

By God refraining from destroying Adam and Eve before they had children serves to spare the ones choosing to be upright because it gives mankind time to be born and molded into vessels of mercy if wished or willing.

If God knows all [which he can] but chooses not to because please notice that the people of Revelation [7vs9,10,14] are un-numbered or an unknown number. If it was a known sealed number there would be no reason to say that all people can't be numbered or counted.

Similar at Rev [20v8 b] people are mentioned as the sands of the seashore.
Who can count the sands of the sea? So the number is unknown as Jeremiah [33v22] shows the host of heaven can not be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured.

Jeremiah also writes [29vs11-14] that God invites humans to seek and search after God, and God will be found by you. What would be the point of the invitation if one could not find him?

According to Deut [32v5] was God responsible for the people's behavior or were the people themselves responsible?

Didn't the people have a choice to decide for themselves at Deut [30v19]?

Zephaniah wrote [2v3] repeatedly to: 'seek, seek, seek'.
'Seek' those conditions to be met in order to be hid in the day of God's anger.
Along that line of thought Hebrews [11v6] is interesting because it says God is the rewarder of those diligently seeking him. We have need of endurance Hebrews [10v36] says so that after we have done the will of God we might receive the promise. Paul was concerned about being a castaway at 1st Cor [9v27]. Why be concerned if he could not fall away?

What would be the point of Isaiah writing [55v6] to seek God if a person could not do so?

What would be the point of seeking God if we could do nothing about it?
Doesn't Acts [17vs27-30] mention not only seeking God but that God wants 'all' men everywhere to repent? Isn't repentance God's will and desire for all?

 

[Thief]

I don't understand why I should have anything to say. Could you explain that?

The parable I referred to is called the wedding feast....Matthew 22...

Someone at the table was asked why he was not properly dressed.
It is portrayed as a 'come as you are' occasion.

Caught by surprised, the invited guest did not have a response.

The servants were called, and the poorly dressed fellow was bound hand and foot...and thrown into the outer darkness for a...
'weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Threads like this one bring people to a point of discussion,
which could be awkward...later on.

 

[PolyHedral]

The major difference being that the king is not perfectly omniscient, and so does not need to be informed as to why I am not wearing wedding clothing. He should already know.

 

[Thief]

The major difference being that the king is not perfectly omniscient, and so does not need to be informed as to why I am not wearing wedding clothing. He should already know.

I think you missed the point.

 

[waitasec]

I think you missed the point.

is that all?
he missed the point, come on thief, you cannot be reasoned while using
judgments and fear as a method to discuss ANYTHING in regards to fatih...fear is a big one for you. you come from that angle almost every time...is that the basis of your faith? fear?
what are you afraid of?

 

[Thief]

is that all?
he missed the point, come on thief, you cannot be reasoned while using
judgments and fear as a method to discuss ANYTHING in regards to fatih...fear is a big one for you. you come from that angle almost every time...is that the basis of your faith? fear?
what are you afraid of?

You missed the point.