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Free Will
- Thread starter Terese
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Hello, have you heard this story?
Once a great battle between the angels and the demons was waged. The angels conquered the demons and the head of the angels, Indra, took all the credit for himself. Thinking that he alone was responsible for winning the battle, he puffed with pride and felt surely there was no higher principle than himself. Such power he had! Such energy! Thus the head of the angels thought.
After a while, with compassion for the deluded one, the Supreme Almighty God came in the form of a yaksha (a nature spirit) and sat upon the low-lying limb of a tree. It was a mysterious being that Indra, the head of the angels, saw.
“Hey,” he said to himself. “Who is that? I want to find out.” But rather than deigning to inquire himself of the lowly yaksha, he called to one of his henchmen. “Agni, O fire god, go ask who is he who dares to sit in a tree in front of me, the Supreme?” Thus spoke Indra, forgetting the Supreme Reality. After all, wasn’t it he who had vanquished the enemies of dharma (righteousness)? So he sent Agni, the fire god, to question him.
“Hey, you!” called Agni, not altogether respectfully, “who are you?” He stuck out his fiery tongue.
“Well,” answered the Lord modestly, “I am a small yaksha, a demigod. Sir, may I know who you are?”
“Oh,” sputtered Agni, “Don’t you have eyes to see? I am the Fire. I am Agni.”
The Lord looked at him before asking, “And what, sir, can you do?”
“Why, I can burn the whole world!” answered Fire proudly. “I can reduce you to ashes in a trice!”
“Hmmm, is that right?” said the Supreme God, Brahman, who had come in the form of that yaksha. He dropped a blade of grass at Agni’s fiery feet and asked, “Can you burn this blade of grass?”
“Of course!” answered the proud Agni. All in the heavens watched as Agni grew exhausted from his efforts, but try hard as he might, he couldn’t make the grass burn because the burning power of Fire had been withdrawn by Brahman Himself. He reported to Indra his failure to make the yaksha identify himself as well as his mysterious power.
So Indra disdainfully dismissed Agni and still puffed with pride, sent Vayu, the wind god, to make inquiry of the yaksha.
Vayu rustled the leaves of the tree in which the yaksha sat, even made the very limb upon which he sat to tremble. The Wind then inquired rudely, “Hey, you! Look lively now and answer the question of my Supreme Commander! Who are you?”
“I am nobody, merely a small yaksha,” answered the Lord of all beings. “And pray tell me, kind sir, who are you?”
“Have you no ears? Can you not hear me blowing? I am Vayu, the wind god! I can toss you right out of that tree from here to kingdom come!”
“Really!? Astonishing!” replied the Lord. He tossed another blade of grass down and it landed near the blustery feet of Vayu. “Can you blow this blade of grass away?”
Vayu huffed and he puffed but the blade of grass did not budge an inch. The power to move air had been withdrawn from him. Taenavina thrinamapi na chalati, that is, “Not a blade of grass moves but by God's will.” Vayu, too, slunk away and reported the failure to his boss, the head of the angels.
Now Indra himself came to confront the yaksha, but before he could utter his demands, the Lord in the form of the yaksha disappeared. In His place stood Uma, goddess Durga, who taught Indra the Upanishad.
“It is God alone who gives you all energies. Therefore, when you are beautiful, that energy is of God. When you are intelligent, that intelligence is given to you by the Almighty. When you are successful, it is because of God. Any type of energy you have—that extraordinary energy belongs to and all the credit goes to that Supreme Spirit. You are nothing without that energy. And it comes from Him. If you know that, that is knowledge. If you don’t know that, that is ego.”
Realizing his error, the humbled Indra bowed his head to the Supreme Reality.
After a while, with compassion for the deluded one, the Supreme Almighty God came in the form of a yaksha (a nature spirit) and sat upon the low-lying limb of a tree. It was a mysterious being that Indra, the head of the angels, saw.
“Hey,” he said to himself. “Who is that? I want to find out.” But rather than deigning to inquire himself of the lowly yaksha, he called to one of his henchmen. “Agni, O fire god, go ask who is he who dares to sit in a tree in front of me, the Supreme?” Thus spoke Indra, forgetting the Supreme Reality. After all, wasn’t it he who had vanquished the enemies of dharma (righteousness)? So he sent Agni, the fire god, to question him.
“Hey, you!” called Agni, not altogether respectfully, “who are you?” He stuck out his fiery tongue.
“Well,” answered the Lord modestly, “I am a small yaksha, a demigod. Sir, may I know who you are?”
“Oh,” sputtered Agni, “Don’t you have eyes to see? I am the Fire. I am Agni.”
The Lord looked at him before asking, “And what, sir, can you do?”
“Why, I can burn the whole world!” answered Fire proudly. “I can reduce you to ashes in a trice!”
“Hmmm, is that right?” said the Supreme God, Brahman, who had come in the form of that yaksha. He dropped a blade of grass at Agni’s fiery feet and asked, “Can you burn this blade of grass?”
“Of course!” answered the proud Agni. All in the heavens watched as Agni grew exhausted from his efforts, but try hard as he might, he couldn’t make the grass burn because the burning power of Fire had been withdrawn by Brahman Himself. He reported to Indra his failure to make the yaksha identify himself as well as his mysterious power.
So Indra disdainfully dismissed Agni and still puffed with pride, sent Vayu, the wind god, to make inquiry of the yaksha.
Vayu rustled the leaves of the tree in which the yaksha sat, even made the very limb upon which he sat to tremble. The Wind then inquired rudely, “Hey, you! Look lively now and answer the question of my Supreme Commander! Who are you?”
“I am nobody, merely a small yaksha,” answered the Lord of all beings. “And pray tell me, kind sir, who are you?”
“Have you no ears? Can you not hear me blowing? I am Vayu, the wind god! I can toss you right out of that tree from here to kingdom come!”
“Really!? Astonishing!” replied the Lord. He tossed another blade of grass down and it landed near the blustery feet of Vayu. “Can you blow this blade of grass away?”
Vayu huffed and he puffed but the blade of grass did not budge an inch. The power to move air had been withdrawn from him. Taenavina thrinamapi na chalati, that is, “Not a blade of grass moves but by God's will.” Vayu, too, slunk away and reported the failure to his boss, the head of the angels.
Now Indra himself came to confront the yaksha, but before he could utter his demands, the Lord in the form of the yaksha disappeared. In His place stood Uma, goddess Durga, who taught Indra the Upanishad.
“It is God alone who gives you all energies. Therefore, when you are beautiful, that energy is of God. When you are intelligent, that intelligence is given to you by the Almighty. When you are successful, it is because of God. Any type of energy you have—that extraordinary energy belongs to and all the credit goes to that Supreme Spirit. You are nothing without that energy. And it comes from Him. If you know that, that is knowledge. If you don’t know that, that is ego.”
Realizing his error, the humbled Indra bowed his head to the Supreme Reality.
Thank you Sw. Vandana Jyothi
Tho some things will happen regardless of our wishes; often the collective consciousness of all (Oneness), implies what Brahman wills.
Just to be clear tho, Oneness is unconditional love, and wisdom; so if the logic doesn't go through them qualities first, Brahman isn't likely to recalculate it.
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Thank you Sw. Vandana Jyothi
Heh, heh, Tereseamma, you're so welcome (that story went deep in me when I first heard it
), but now what do we do with my Guruji's statement that we have 80% predetermined karma and 20% free will? I think we've touched on this before somewhere else. Like we began asking just how "free" is that 20% or is it, too, almost predictable based on predilection because of habit or subtle vasanas which fruit and flower at various points in our lives? I choose to believe that we are not hopeless automatons in that department and it makes sense, too. Without a modicum of "free" will, how can we choose to surrender it in total to our Lord when we realize that, even with only 20% in the game, we keep making messes in our lives? A conundrum.
(Will) you tell us more, Aup? tee hee
Tho some things will happen regardless of our wishes; often the collective consciousness of all (Oneness), dictates what Brahman wills.
Just to be clear tho, Oneness is unconditional love, and wisdom; so if the logic doesn't go through them qualities first, Brahman isn't likely to recalculate it.
Hi, wizanda
Do you literally mean "dictates" Brahman's will or more like Brahman will "allow" the consequences of the collective consciousness to play out?
Namaste Vandana-Ji,
As though all of us can plead all day, it is only by Brahman say so that anything happens; thus Brahman is 'allowing' us to see the results.
You're quite right, and edited it to be 'implies', instead of 'dictates'....
As though all of us can plead all day, it is only by Brahman say so that anything happens; thus Brahman is 'allowing' us to see the results.
Namaste Vandana-Ji,
You're quite right, and edited it to be 'implies', instead of 'dictates'....
As though all of us can plead all day, it is only by Brahman say so that anything happens; thus Brahman is 'allowing' us to see the results.
Ding, ding, ding, ding! (vis a vis our biases and greed, is that why we have a Trump option for prez?)
Although Guruji used to say, to everyone's delight, "Oh! That Lord! For His bhaktas, He will do anything. He is like a pet dog on a leash, bound by your devotion!"
Conditioned by our samskaras, education and life experience, and of course, God's will. Oh, I retract from the last. Forgot I am an atheist. Sometimes I do forget.
LOL, you just keep getting better and better, Aup! So fun. How very grateful I am to have been led to this sanga. Gratitude is the grease for grace and it's been raining that nectar a lot lately.
Yes. Brahman is non dual and manifests as universe, jiva (living beings), and Ishwara (Lord). So there cannot be two or more wills. That there are many true beings with their individual wills is the 'mAyA'.
Svestavatara Upanishad says: "Eko hi Rudro, dvittiya nasthu" (Rudra alone is without a second). Similarly, in Gita, Paramatman Shri Krishna says "I am the beginning, the middle, the end". He also teaches Arjuna "Know that you are not a doer".
Once ego surrenders to the above reality, what remains? No stress, no tension, no fear.
So true, atanuji! So why oh why do I keep taking back portions of my surrender?! I don't have fear anymore, but the others? This "two forward, one back...."
Oh. Mother. Of course. Be gracious, Maa. This is stressful, causes me tension.
A very thought-provoking question, Rese! Uhhhh....of course, there are two wills: The Lord's and that of the individual. By your question, you seem to posit that there is a God with a Will, which I obviously agree with, so that's how I'm gonna approach this.
God is my Creator, the All-Knowing, the All-Perceiving. I, in recognition of this as well as this lack in my own self, can either choose to do my own thing in life or “turn away from myself”. So, of course, I'm presented with a conflict of will with Will. Mindful, as I am, of God, and of my own (truly, countless) mistakes resulting from the acting out of my own will, I'm choosing the Will of the All-Knowing over my own, every single time.
From Bahá'u'lláh’s Hidden Words:
“O SON OF MAN! If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.”
I guess, if I may alter your question, Rese, thereby answering, I would say that 'The will of the Lord is the only will (that benefits the True Lover)'.
True and false depending on your understandings. It is true for me because I am a non-dualist (God and creation are not-two). As we advance we learn we are that Lord as it is all only One/God/Brahman.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
True and false, as @George-ananda states.. We benefit in the illusion of self, of space-time, and of will. However, everything that occurs is God's will, being that God is the all-knowing, insurmountable reality.
So rapists and murderers are just doing the Lord's will? (I'm certain most rapists and murderers would be happy to hear that.) Wouldn't it therefore be wrong for humans to punish these people who are merely doing what the Lord's will? Or, assuming that the Lord willed humans to arrest, try, convict and punish rapists and murderers who are just doing the Lord's will, doesn't that make the Lord rather capricious and irrational?
If individuals do not determine their own acts, then what is the issue (or all the issues) about morality and ethics? How does one explain the massive amount of energy that humans expend on trying to know the difference between right and wrong behaviors, and seeking to do (and encouraging others to do) what is right rather than the wrong? The idea that one should do unto others as one would others do unto oneself must be a big scam. How did so many people (most humans, through out history) acquire the delusion that it is good to strive to do unto others as one would have them do unto oneself?
Religions are all acutely concerned about morals and ethics. Yet it seems that, if it were true that everyone's acts are just acts that the Lord willed, religious people should especially know this. How does one explain religions' concerns about moral and ethical behavior?
How does one explain the fact that each individual's foreknowledge operates either exactly or generally as if s/he determined his/her own voluntary bodily movements? For instance, I can predict exactly what will be my next post here (challenge me), but I don't have a clue as to what anyone else's next post will be.
How do you explain the fact, as studies show, that people who believe that they can and do will their own voluntary bodily movements tend to act more ethically than people who believe their acts are determined by forces beyond themselves, and that people who believe they can and do act willfully demonstrate better job performance than those who do not so believe? (Ask me for those studies). It seems that it would be just the opposite, if having of free will were a delusion.
How does one explain that, according to the American Psychiatric Association, avolition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avolition ) and impairment in impulse control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_control_disorder ) are manifestations of several mental disorders?
Is this an example of good parenting as his/her child starts to school: "Johnny, we believe the will of the Lord is the only will. If the Lord has willed that you will make good grades and pass your tests and so forth, then you will; there is no reason for you to bother trying to make an effort to learn what your teacher is teaching"?
@DJ_sXe , I am so in "like" of everything you've written here and have been since the moment you posted it. Hesitated for days, but please, if it is not offensive, may I ask if the scriptures of Baha'i faith are translations from an original tongue? The reason I ask is, in Hinduism we would not say, for instance, that "something" has to happen before Beloved lives eternally in us. We do not live, move and have being if it were not already so. The 'turning away from thyself' is totally understandable (we call it ahankar, ego), yes, very good thing. Also, surrendering one's will, oh yes. So, in Baha'i, can you please clarify this point for me? Does God dwell "within" in the manner I'm suggesting? I do not know how to call this concept in Baha'i language.