Freedom....What is real freedom ?

[joea]

Does freedom to you means, doing anything you want to do; Does it mean bombing Iraq and install a new government for the people or a master giving his slave freedom and reward for good work ?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

A lot think freedom means doing whatever you want to do. That may indeed be freedom, but it's a harmful kind of freedom. It's the kind of freedom America promotes, and we're seeing the side effects of it right now, our country is a mess. Freedom to harm others is not a good kind of freedom.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Freedom to obey the following:

An it harm none, do as you will.

 

[dust1n]

The materialistic. realistic, and collectivist conception of freedom, as opposed to the idealistic, is this: Man becomes conscious of himself and his humanity only in society and only by the collective action of the whole society. He frees himself from the yoke of external nature only by collective and social labor, which alone can transform the earth into an abode favorable to the development of humanity. Without such material emancipation the intellectual and moral emancipation of the individual is impossible. He can emancipate himself from the yoke of his own nature, i.e. subordinate his instincts and the movements of his body to the conscious direction of his mind, the development of which is fostered only by education and training. But education and training are preeminently and exclusively social ... hence the isolated individual cannot possibly become conscious of his freedom.

To be free ... means to be acknowledged and treated as such by all his fellowmen. The liberty of every individual is only the reflection of his own humanity, or his human right through the conscience of all free men, his brothers and his equals.

I can feel free only in the presence of and in relationship with other men. In the presence of an inferior species of animal I am neither free nor a man, because this animal is incapable of conceiving and consequently recognizing my humanity. I am not myself free or human until or unless I recognize the freedom and humanity of all my fellowmen.

Only in respecting their human character do I respect my own. ...

I am truly free only when all human beings, men and women, are equally free. The freedom of other men, far from negating or limiting my freedom, is, on the contrary, its necessary premise and confirmation.

I love getting to throw out Bakunin!

 

[Storm]

Does freedom to you means, doing anything you want to do;

Within reason.

Does it mean bombing Iraq and install a new government for the people or a master giving his slave freedom and reward for good work ?

Of course not.

 

[Orias]

Freedom is expressing your will and ability to strive among the many. To live in your own mind set and dictate the moral sanctuary. True freedom is only fantasy, everyone is dictated to a point. So to retreat to your mind, and become the sanctuary, where you have your freedom to do as you please. But truth in freedom cannot be idealistically achieved, as there is always a dominate figure in the realistic society.

 

[Octavia156]

This is the Thelemic Charter of universal Freedom.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it

Liber LXXVII

"the law of
the strong:
this is our law
and the joy
of the world."
—AL. II. 2 "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." —AL. I. 40
"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." —AL. I. 42–3
"Every man and every woman is a star." —AL. I. 3
There is no god but man.

1. Man has the right to live by his own law— to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will:
to die when and how he will. 2. Man has the right to eat what he will: to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth. 3. Man has the right to think what he will: to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will. 4. Man has the right to love as he will:— "take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51 5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

"the slaves shall serve." —AL. II. 58

"Love is the law, love under will." —AL. I. 57
​

​

 

[Orias]

This is the Thelemic Charter of universal Freedom.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it

Liber LXXVII

"the law of
the strong:
this is our law
and the joy
of the world."
—AL. II. 2 "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." —AL. I. 40
"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." —AL. I. 42–3
"Every man and every woman is a star." —AL. I. 3
There is no god but man.
How are we gods? When we were only born into existence only knowing life, and the natural instincts given to us. When all animals are naturalists at what they do and they survive doing it. Man is the most vicious animal of all. You can only comprehend divinity, not live it.​

1. Man has the right to live by his own law— to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will:
to die when and how he will. 2. Man has the right to eat what he will: to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth. 3. Man has the right to think what he will: to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will. 4. Man has the right to love as he will:— "take your fill and will of love as ye will,​

when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51 5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

"the slaves shall serve." —AL. II. 58​

Do you listen to Behemoth at all? They have a song called The Slaves Shall Serve. They are LHP.

"Love is the law, love under will." —AL. I. 57​

The mind is capable of more than love, so why not exercise all emotions? Why not will over love, so you can obtain what you will and you are still capable of a passionate love. Where there is only gratification in ones own well being and the close people around them.

Man has the right to do anything he pleases, religious constraints have with held this from happening however. In turn you are saying man can write and think what he wills. When his will is forced upon others, restraining the will of the flock. Will becomes corruption. Willpower is stronger in those who use to their advantage, where their rebellion from the flock is blessed with the extravagance of a universal mind.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

This is the Thelemic Charter of universal Freedom.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it

Liber LXXVII

"the law of
the strong:
this is our law
and the joy
of the world."
—AL. II. 2 "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." —AL. I. 40
"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." —AL. I. 42–3
"Every man and every woman is a star." —AL. I. 3
There is no god but man.​

1. Man has the right to live by his own law— to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will:
to die when and how he will. 2. Man has the right to eat what he will: to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth. 3. Man has the right to think what he will: to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will. 4. Man has the right to love as he will:— "take your fill and will of love as ye will,​

when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51 5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

"the slaves shall serve." —AL. II. 58​

"Love is the law, love under will." —AL. I. 57​

I'm a member of the Nation of Gods and Earths (5 percenters). Sounds a lot like our philosophy; I like it.

 

[Orias]

I'm a member of the Nation of Gods and Earths (5 percenters). Sounds a lot like our philosophy; I like it.

It also sounds alot like our philosophy.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

How are we gods? When we were only born into existence only knowing life, and the natural instincts given to us. When all animals are naturalists at what they do and they survive doing it. Man is the most vicious animal of all. You can only comprehend divinity, not live it.

I can't speak for Octavia, but when the NGE talks about the concept of man as God, we don't literally mean that man is a supernatural being. When we refer to ourselves as Gods, we mean that there is no higher authority in the universe commanding us to do things. Man is truly free to live however he pleases. I don't know if Thelemics think of this the same way, this is the first I'm hearing of this group.

 

[Orias]

I can't speak for Octavia, but when the NGE talks about the concept of man as God, we don't literally mean that man is a supernatural being. When we refer to ourselves as Gods, we mean that there is no higher authority in the universe commanding us to do things. Man is truly free to live however he pleases. I don't know if Thelemics think of this the same way, this is the first I'm hearing of this group.

I was just critisizing...building ideas. You know. But we all interperated it in a common way. And if it is not supernatural, how is it divine?

 

[Walkntune]

Does freedom to you means, doing anything you want to do; Does it mean bombing Iraq and install a new government for the people or a master giving his slave freedom and reward for good work ?

Humans have the want to control, be approved, and survive.Freedom is to not be in bondage to these wants.

 

[Orias]

Humans have the want to control, be approved, and survive.Freedom is to not be in bondage to these wants.

Only slaves seek approval. Natural beings approve themselves.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I was just critisizing...building ideas. You know. But we all interperated it in a common way. And if it is not supernatural, how is it divine?

For people who share this philosophy, it is assumed that they believe the "divine" is a complete fabrication. "God" is a loose title, if nothing else it's used to aggravate those who believe in an actual god who determines what we should do.

 

[dust1n]

This is the Thelemic Charter of universal Freedom.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it

Liber LXXVII

"the law of
the strong:
this is our law
and the joy
of the world."
—AL. II. 2 "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." —AL. I. 40
"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." —AL. I. 42–3
"Every man and every woman is a star." —AL. I. 3
There is no god but man.

1. Man has the right to live by his own law— to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will:
to die when and how he will. 2. Man has the right to eat what he will: to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth. 3. Man has the right to think what he will: to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will. 4. Man has the right to love as he will:— "take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51 5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

"the slaves shall serve." —AL. II. 58

"Love is the law, love under will." —AL. I. 57
​

​

Very beautiful.. but I didn't need a book to recognize any of those things as true.

 

[Walkntune]

Only slaves seek approval. Natural beings approve themselves.

Any time you want someone to notice any quality you have, you are seeking approval!

 

[Orias]

Any time you want someone to notice any quality you have, you are seeking approval!

But you are wrong. I only seek knowledge. I could care less what you think.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Humans have the want to control, be approved, and survive.Freedom is to not be in bondage to these wants.

People shouldn't want to survive?

 

[Kerr]

Does freedom to you means, doing anything you want to do; Does it mean bombing Iraq and install a new government for the people or a master giving his slave freedom and reward for good work ?

None of them. Freedom means many things. Freedom of expression, freedom of action, freedom of the mind, even freedom to be against freedom. I guess when I think of freedom I think of not having to live in fear of your government, not to have addictions, to be able to say what I think and feel... basically just to be who I am without having to worry. And mean that in a reasonable way, not in a "do-as-I-please" way. Freedom as I see it does not mean war and it is nothing you deserve.

Am I free?

I would like to think so. But I know it is not true. Granted, I live in a free society. But freedom is more then just living in the right place. Freedom exist in the mind as well, and there my freedom is unfortunately lacking.