Freewill and Heaven

[The Sum of Awe]

I know this is brought up a lot, but don't recall anyone ever explaining it without flaws.


If there is freewill in heaven, it wouldn't be perfect. It isn't pure bliss if you are allowed to do evil.

Follow up^: If there is freewill in heaven, and it is perfect, why do many people blame freewill for the imperfection of our reality that (supposedly) has freewill. If it is possible to have both freewill and perfection, why not give us that?

If there isn't freewill in heaven, isn't heaven kind of pointless? Living as a robot only being able to do what he demands.

Follow up ^: If heaven isn't pointless without freewill, why doesn't input the same standards on earth?

 

[allfoak]

I know this is brought up a lot, but don't recall anyone ever explaining it without flaws.


If there is freewill in heaven, it wouldn't be perfect. It isn't pure bliss if you are allowed to do evil.

Follow up^: If there is freewill in heaven, and it is perfect, why do many people blame freewill for the imperfection of our reality that (supposedly) has freewill. If it is possible to have both freewill and perfection, why not give us that?

If there isn't freewill in heaven, isn't heaven kind of pointless? Living as a robot only being able to do what he demands.

Follow up ^: If heaven isn't pointless without freewill, why doesn't input the same standards on earth?

There is free will and there is law.
Law governs all choices.
We reap what we sow.

 

[Ouroboros]

I know this is brought up a lot, but don't recall anyone ever explaining it without flaws.

What can I say? I've asked the same questions for years and never really got any satisfactory answer (well, not satisfactory to me, at least )

If God really wanted to create a perfect world, and this is the one, and free will is part of it, then heaven can't be more perfect than this. And if heaven is the perfect place, but this one isn't, then why did he create this one first and not just put us in heaven?

It all sounds like God is experimenting on us. We're just rats in a maze, and we're just running around trying to find the cheese (heaven), and he'll make some notes and a report of what we did. Then we're all going to the incinerator anyway...

 

[chinu]

If there is freewill in heaven, it wouldn't be perfect. It isn't pure bliss if you are allowed to do evil.

Either, intoxicating-injection it is given willingly, or unwillingly, in both the cases it brings one to same effect / "State of affair". Similarly, bliss is kinda "State of affair" which doesn't requires any willingness, or unwillingness, thereafter. There's no willingness, or unwillingness in heaven because there's only Bliss, only Bliss, only Bliss, nothing else.

 

[`mud]

I would think that 'freewill' was intended for the humans on earth.
If one gets to 'heaven' one must die first, and get judged as to one's performance.
So says "GOD", and maybe "JESUS", one must get through "JESUS" the Christians say.
I guess the Jewish people can be judged by "GOD" directly, no flesh in heaven.
Anyway...freewill is a choice, not a grade, no gradecards in heaven, it's too late then.
~
And to you non-believers.....you also have a choice...remember...Life is Stuff...enjoy !
~
'mud

 

[Andywelikandy]

What can I say? I've asked the same questions for years and never really got any satisfactory answer (well, not satisfactory to me, at least )

If God really wanted to create a perfect world, and this is the one, and free will is part of it, then heaven can't be more perfect than this. And if heaven is the perfect place, but this one isn't, then why did he create this one first and not just put us in heaven?

It all sounds like God is experimenting on us. We're just rats in a maze, and we're just running around trying to find the cheese (heaven), and he'll make some notes and a report of what we did. Then we're all going to the incinerator anyway...

There are questions that have no answers. For example why did the Creator create anything at all remembering that the Creator had been in existence from eternity past. Since it is the first two human beings who made a mess in the beginning why did the creator create them fully knowing that Adam and Eve were going to mess up the human race? Why didn't the Creator create mankind the way He created billions of angels. (Angels were created, all of them at once with no sexuality in them, according to the Holy Bible that is!).

The questions that have reasoned out answers are all there in the Words (i.e., the Holy Bible) that the Creator Himself indirectly produced via His chosen agents--the prophets.

 

[Repox]

I know this is brought up a lot, but don't recall anyone ever explaining it without flaws.


If there is freewill in heaven, it wouldn't be perfect. It isn't pure bliss if you are allowed to do evil.

Follow up^: If there is freewill in heaven, and it is perfect, why do many people blame freewill for the imperfection of our reality that (supposedly) has freewill. If it is possible to have both freewill and perfection, why not give us that?

If there isn't freewill in heaven, isn't heaven kind of pointless? Living as a robot only being able to do what he demands.

Follow up ^: If heaven isn't pointless without freewill, why doesn't input the same standards on earth?

There would have to be freewill in heaven. After God created an angel, he threw it out into heaven to decide to accept or reject God. Invariably, angels chose to be in the presence of God. Satan is an example of what happens when an angel rejects God. Satan removed himself from the throne of God and pretended to be God. After attacking and hurting the other angels, God created the universe and tossed Satan inside. The universe is Satan's prison until the end of time.

 

[Akivah]

I know this is brought up a lot, but don't recall anyone ever explaining it without flaws.

We don't have a lot of detail about how existence is in Heaven. So it is reasonable that there will be holes in explanations.

If there is freewill in heaven, it wouldn't be perfect. It isn't pure bliss if you are allowed to do evil.

G-d never applies the standard of perfection to us humans. So I wouldn't expect perfection in Heaven with human souls either. Since the angels can make mistakes, it is reasonable to assume that our human souls would also make mistakes; and mistakes are the lightest classification of sin.

Follow up^: If there is freewill in heaven, and it is perfect,...

Flawed premise. Perfection doesn't apply to humans. Can't answer any of your other follow up questions for the same reason.

 

[Repox]

We don't have a lot of detail about how existence is in Heaven. So it is reasonable that there will be holes in explanations.



G-d never applies the standard of perfection to us humans. So I wouldn't expect perfection in Heaven with human souls either. Since the angels can make mistakes, it is reasonable to assume that our human souls would also make mistakes; and mistakes are the lightest classification of sin.


Flawed premise. Perfection doesn't apply to humans. Can't answer any of your other follow up questions for the same reason.

I disagree with your assumption about Angels. Angels are in the presence of God worshipping and adoring Him. They are perfect creatures. Humans are imperfect creatures. In heaven, there is no imperfection. Except for symbolic communication abilities, humans are no different than other species, they live, die and turn to dust. The key to salvation and perfection is to obey God's Commandments.

 

[allfoak]

Luke 17:21 (KJV)
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Free will, like the kingdom of heaven, is within us.
This would mean that free will and heaven are compatible.

 

[Repox]

Luke 17:21 (KJV)
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Free will, like the kingdom of heaven, is within us.
This would mean that free will and heaven are compatible.

The implications of what you propose is we are "earthly saints." Why bother to seek heaven or be good when you are in heaven. What is lacking in such a heavenly proposal is evidence for the goodness of humans. Look in prisons for saintly people. What do you find? Remove locks from everyone's door, what would you find? It would be anarchy. If there is a heaven, there is no evidence it is here in our material world.

 

[Skwim]

Take it from me. Just as we on Earth have no free will and god has no free will, no one in heaven has free will either.


.

 

[allfoak]

The implications of what you propose is we are "earthly saints." Why bother to seek heaven or be good when you are in heaven. What is lacking in such a heavenly proposal is evidence for the goodness of humans. Look in prisons for saintly people. What do you find? Remove locks from everyone's door, what would you find? It would be anarchy. If there is a heaven, there is no evidence it is here in our material world.

Jesus said to seek first the kingdom of heaven.
He also said the kingdom of heaven is within us.
While your observations are correct in that there is a lot of behavior in the world that is not of a saintly nature, it is because they do not seek after the knowledge of self but live for whatever pleasure that they can find within the material world.

 

[Sleeppy]

No free will.

 

[allfoak]

No free will.

Is this a protest against human rights?

 

[Sleeppy]

Is this a protest against human rights?

No.

 

[Akivah]

Except for symbolic communication abilities, humans are no different than other species, they live, die and turn to dust.

Your sentence above disagrees with the Tanakh. G-d told us, that He made us in His image. Since no other life form is made in G-d's image, we are different from every other species.

 

[Cobol]

Something I don't quite understand is a common Christian view that free will is a necessity, but it also comes with the ability to sin, and that the two cannot be separate. The reason for this allegedly being that the Christian god wanted us to freely choose to obey and exalt him and that he didn't want us to be automatons that simply did as he asked, thus free will to make the choice to do so, but also the choice to do evil instead.

So, is there free will in heaven? Because, if so, what happens to our capacity to sin? Is it gone? Why didn't we just start out that way? If there's no free will in heaven, then we end up being the obedient automatons that this god allegedly didn't want us to be in the first place, except now for all eternity.

If your free will is curtailed or removed in heaven, wouldn't your emotions be stripped away? Then that isn't "you" who is in heaven. That's a facsimile of you. Therefore, no one goes to heaven. You would be some mindless worship bot, singing repetitious praise for all eternity to appease the fragile self image of the super ego. This kind of existence sounds abysmal and to me is no different than just being dead.
,
If free will exists in heaven, then we are looking at one of two possibilities. This means that either evil can exist in heaven, or that it is possible to disallow evil while still allowing free will. If the former is true, then heaven isn't the paradise it is often made out to be. If the latter is true, then god must be malevolent as he did not implement this same system on earth, which has caused needless suffering and the eternal damnation of millions.