Freewill Revisited

[ecco]

In the past 30 years I have had at least 70 premonitions about the future that proved right.

When you had these premonitions...

were they specific and detailed or just vague feelings?
did you write them down with specifics?​

Afterwards, have you gone back and compared what you wrote to the actual events.

Do you have any examples or evidence?

 

[ecco]

Besides that, atheists who say this about God have never thought it through. They have never stopped to think how God could eliminate evil without taking over human free will.

One, of many, simple alternatives...
When a person commits an evil God, disappears him. In his place God leaves a pile of ashes with a note: "Be good or else this may happen to you". It's just like keeping children in line in December. "Santa's making a list and checking it twice". Many children, or people seeing the pile of ashes, would choose to be good. No one is forced to do any thing, they are "encouraged".

See Trailblazer, we atheists have stopped to think. It's surprising that you and other Christians haven't arrived at this same conclusion.

 

[stvdv]

When you had these premonitions...

were they specific and detailed or just vague feelings?
did you write them down with specifics?​

Afterwards, have you gone back and compared what you wrote to the actual events.
Do you have any examples or evidence?

I mentioned this to glorify God. I am not special at all having some premonitions, but people were doubting God's omniscience, hence my reply

I have quite a few health issues. 30 years ago I told my Guru (mentally) "I surrender to you and won't go to hospital AND I will follow your diet instructions"
[I think my Guru especially loves my promose to follow diet instruction; i got many of those. Even more than I like]

So, many of my premonitions are about my health:

Spoiler: 1 Experience proving to me that my Guru is omniscient

1 example: My guru came in my dream telling me "Your B12 level is too low, you need to inject B12". I did not even know of B12. I went to the hospital and had a blood test. My B12 was 18, where it should be 150-450. Without asking me, my doctor jammed a needle in my arm. Before my Guru came in my dream and told me "I cured you many times of mental breakdown". I did not understand what He tried to communicate. But after the B12 specific dream, reading about it, I figured out that such low B12 levels easily can give nervous troubles. These kind of experiences changed my believe in "God being omniscient" into knowing God to be omniscient.

Normally my Guru gives a hint, so that I can work out the details myself. Sometimes I am not smart enough and by His Grace He gives me details.

I consider myself to be "a lazy devotee" (my Guru told me when in a group interview "This boy is sometimes lazy"). At least I am not lazy in doing introspection, my Guru had "medition" in mind. So I am 100% sure that he let me get away easy saying "sometimes"; the rest of the group didn't even notice, but I never forget.

My experiences are proof enough to me that my Guru is omniscient. I believe that God is omniscient, although I do not have this Bible picture of God. I think more in terms of Consciousness (Indian definition). And omniscience is part of Consciousness. That is very obvious to me.

 

[stvdv]

we atheists have stopped to think

Great, that is the best spiritual sadhana "stop thinking" IMO. I managed only 10 hours during a Maha Shivaratri night. And that was only due to the grace of my Guru. I did do some big sadhana a few weeks prior (fasting for 9 days on fruit only + not talking 1 single word for 9 days also).

For me it is still not possible to "not think". I do think less, but even 1 hour without a single thought I do not manage nowadays, let alone 10 hours or like you atheists "stopped thinking altogether". Congratulation and I bow down to all the atheist "who stopped thinking". My Guru taught me to never exaggerate. I do have the feeling your quote is a bit exaggerating, especially "we atheist" suggesting all atheist. But of course it can be true.

 

[sealchan]

The Christian God is considered to omniscient, omnipotent and eternal by most Christians. Doesn't that include you?

The logical consequences are that God planned the "fall of man".

He gave A&E and all their descendants, the ability to choose freely.

He foreknew that A&E would partake of the fruit. He foreknew that Cain would kill Abel. He foreknew that He would kill almost everything in the Flood.

He knew this for most of eternity before He ever, omnipotently created anything.

What do you make of the fact that God complains to Himself about how bad people have become before He creates the Flood? Or how He warned Cain about ein before Cain murdered his brother? Or about how God commented to no human about how the Tree of Life should be removed?

 

[sealchan]

Great, that is the best spiritual sadhana "stop thinking" IMO. I managed only 10 hours during a Maha Shivaratri night. And that was only due to the grace of my Guru. I did do some big sadhana a few weeks prior (fasting for 9 days on fruit only + not talking 1 single word for 9 days also).

For me it is still not possible to "not think". I do think less, but even 1 hour without a single thought I do not manage nowadays, let alone 10 hours or like you atheists "stopped thinking altogether". Congratulation and I bow down to all the atheist "who stopped thinking". My Guru taught me to never exaggerate. I do have the feeling your quote is a bit exaggerating, especially "we atheist" suggesting all atheist. But of course it can be true.

I think ecco meant "chose to think" rather than to continually repeat a chosen ststement... but perhaps you were being facetious.

 

[ecco]

I have quite a few health issues. 30 years ago I told my Guru (mentally) "I surrender to you and won't go to hospital AND I will follow your diet instructions"
[I think my Guru especially loves my promose to follow diet instruction; i got many of those. Even more than I like]

Yet below you state that you did go to a hospital and got aided with a shot of B12.

1 example: My guru came in my dream telling me "Your B12 level is too low, you need to inject B12". I did not even know of B12. I went to the hospital and had a blood test. My B12 was 18, where it should be 150-450. Without asking me, my doctor jammed a needle in my arm. Before my Guru came in my dream and told me "I cured you many times of mental breakdown". I did not understand what He tried to communicate. But after the B12 specific dream, reading about it, I figured out that such low B12 levels easily can give nervous troubles. These kind of experiences changed my believe in "God being omniscient" into knowing God to be omniscient.

You stated that you had health issues. You stated that you had never heard of B12.

Unless you lived in a cave with no access to media or other people, you probably would have heard of B12, especially 30 years ago when it had become something of a fad. It may not have even been conscious. Our brain hears and stores away things all the time.

Perhaps during a period of feeling ill, you did what a lot of people do. You went to a doctor (hospital). The doctor did what most doctors do, ran a blood test. When he saw your deficiencies, he gave you a shot.

Afterwards, you partially remembered hearing about feeling run down and vitamin deficiencies.

You took this as a premonition or a sign of the omniscience of your "mental guru". Most people would not have thought twice about it.

 

[ecco]

My emphases in next two posts...

See Trailblazer, we atheists have stopped to think. It's surprising that you and other Christians haven't arrived at this same conclusion.

Great, that is the best spiritual sadhana "stop thinking"

1. Stopped to think
2. Stopped thinking

Do you not understand the difference?

Perhaps it is a language barrier. Perhaps you just misread it.

like you atheists "stopped thinking altogether". Congratulation and I bow down to all the atheist "who stopped thinking". My Guru taught me to never exaggerate. I do have the feeling your quote is a bit exaggerating, especially "we atheist" suggesting all atheist. But of course it can be true.

So, no exaggerating. I'll accept your apology.

 

[ecco]

What do you make of the fact that God complains to Himself about how bad people have become before He creates the Flood? Or how He warned Cain about ein before Cain murdered his brother? Or about how God commented to no human about how the Tree of Life should be removed?

Since God is omniscient*, some of your comments indicate God is putting on a show or is delusional.

*For the sake of this discussion, I am accepting the actual existence on an Eternal, Omnipotent, Omniscient God who literally did the things described in Genesis.

 

[stvdv]

Besides that, atheists who say this about God have never thought it through.
They have never stopped to think how God could eliminate evil without taking over human free will.

See Trailblazer, we atheists have stopped to think. It's surprising that you and other Christians haven't arrived at this same conclusion.

My emphases in next two posts...

1. Stopped to think
2. Stopped thinking

Do you not understand the difference?

Perhaps it is a language barrier. Perhaps you just misread it.

Thanks, your remark sounded really strange (knowing atheists usually think very well). I did not read Trailblazers line well, so I misread yours.

 

[stvdv]

Yet below you state that you did go to a hospital and got aided with a shot of B12.

You stated that you had health issues. You stated that you had never heard of B12.

Unless you lived in a cave with no access to media or other people, you probably would have heard of B12, especially 30 years ago when it had become something of a fad. It may not have even been conscious. Our brain hears and stores away things all the time.

Perhaps during a period of feeling ill, you did what a lot of people do. You went to a doctor (hospital). The doctor did what most doctors do, ran a blood test. When he saw your deficiencies, he gave you a shot.

Afterwards, you partially remembered hearing about feeling run down and vitamin deficiencies.

You took this as a premonition or a sign of the omniscience of your "mental guru". Most people would not have thought twice about it.

I was not clear enough. I decided 30 years ago to rely on my Guru for my health problems. So when He tells me to go to hospital to do tests I will go, and when He tells me to take B12 shots I will do (of course I do some checking when He tells; not blind taking shots)

I might have heard of B12, but was not aware it was important or that one could have deficiency. I just did not think about those things much at that time. At that time there was no internet (at least not in India where i was when it happened; came to India in 1990; windows 1998 started in 1998 I guess, and windows 2000 in 2000 and windows XP afterwards), and I was living like in a cave (never reading newspapers, magazins, books except spiritual ones), I stayed in the ashram for quite a few years.

You can believe whatever you want. But it was like I said "I had health issues, but not aware what was the problem. Just relied on my Guru, did not go to hospital in that time (just accepted the suffering and being sick). Then I got that dream in which my Guru instructed me to take B12 injections. Only then I thought `aha, nice, now I can check whether or not this dream is true or just monkey mind`. And that is when I went to hospital got my B12 test done". Not the other way around like you interpreted it.

It is not "mental guru". My guru was at that time physical alive and appeared in my dreams. These experiences are real. My Guru says this, and I know from experience, but I do not expect an atheist to believe that. I could not believe something like this before I experienced it myself.

I did not have vitamine deficiencies. Just one, the B12.

 

[Trailblazer]

One, of many, simple alternatives...
When a person commits an evil God, disappears him. In his place God leaves a pile of ashes with a note: "Be good or else this may happen to you". It's just like keeping children in line in December. "Santa's making a list and checking it twice". Many children, or people seeing the pile of ashes, would choose to be good. No one is forced to do any thing, they are "encouraged".

See Trailblazer, we atheists have stopped to think. It's surprising that you and other Christians haven't arrived at this same conclusion.

I sure wish God would eliminate the evil people, but I have no control over an omnipotent God.
I am dealing with an evil lying manipulative tenant right now and God is not going to bail me out... I am stuck having to hire an attorney or defend myself without one.... I have not decided which I will do, I will know after the initial consult. If I did what I want to do, I would eliminate the tenant myself. He would go straight to hell, where he belongs.

 

[stvdv]

I think ecco meant "chose to think" rather than to continually repeat a chosen ststement... but perhaps you were being facetious.

Thanks for clarifying. I learn even a new word "facetious". But it was not meant to be funny. Even after your explanation I did not get it. But Ecco was so friendly to make it very clear. I won't forget this any time soon.

I did not read Trailblazer's comment well, so I misread Ecco's context and took his line "See Trailblazer, we atheists have stopped to think" exactly as it was said. I mean if Ecco had written "we atheists have stopped, to think" or even better "started to think" I might have realized it. Maybe for english speaking this is obvious. I just did not see it that way. I learn every day new english lines on RF.

But even now I think it's a funny way to say it. "We have stopped to think". I mean "stopped thinking to think", or "stopped talking to think" or "stopped life to think"; as if "life can be stopped". Anyway I get it now that this is a normal way to say it in the english language.

 

[stvdv]

I sure wish God would eliminate the evil people, but I have no control over an omnipotent God.
I am dealing with an evil lying manipulative tenant right now and God is not going to bail me out... I am stuck having to hire an attorney or defend myself without one.... I have not decided which I will do, I will know after the initial consult. If I did what I want to do, I would eliminate the tenant myself. He would go straight to hell, where he belongs.

I really like this line "I have no control over an omnipotent God"

I remember my Guru once telling "I God came to earth to kill the evil people, none would survive". So I am glad God does not eliminate the evil ones.

I am so sorry to hear that you are stuck with such a horrible tenant. Here in Holland they even have so many rights. So probably you really do need an attorney ... or pray really hard to God to eliminate the tenant. My neighbor is a horrible narcissist who tries lawsuits on all neighbors. Once I was in a show and she shouted "Help, this man attacks me, kick him out of the supermarket please". Women are believed easy in Holland. Luckily I was smart to call the police immediately, and she called them just a few minutes later. The police told me later "you called first, so we could drop her charges". I still must have some bad karma. Now I decided to avoid her at all costs. When she is in the same supermarket I go to the owner and inform him about her crazyness, just in case she does stupid again.

We do live in a crazy world nowadays.

Wish you all the luck you need to get the tenant out. I know how hard it is to get them out. I would never like to rent rooms. Most tenants are okay I guess, but once you have a bad one, you are in real trouble. Would be great if you did have some "omnipotent power" to handle this tenant. I guess in your imagination the tenant died already many times. At least I occasionally have that thought with my narcissistic neighbor. Can't help it. Don't feel guilty about it either.

Good luck

 

[stvdv]

Do I really have to tell you to look up the definition of "omniscient"?

There might be one small problem. How to define "omniscient" when you are not "omniscient"?

My question was as much to start a discussion on what omniscience implies as anything else. Do you know what the logical consequences of God being omniscient are?

Very good question: How can anyone who is "not omniscience" say something which makes sense about "omniscience"?
And even more difficult the problem "what about God being omniscient". To know and define "God" is the biggest problem, yet to be solved.

The Christian God is considered to omniscient, omnipotent and eternal by most Christians.
The logical consequences are that God planned the "fall of man".
He knew this for most of eternity before He ever, omnipotently created anything.

I just had 1 thought. If a father (you) has a son, and at age 4 (of the son) decides to teach him to ride the bicycle.
In your analogy "the logical consequences are that you planned the `fall of your son from his bicycle`". Do I understand this correctly?

 

[ecco]

Besides that, atheists who say this about God have never thought it through. They have never stopped to think how God could eliminate evil without taking over human free will. God would have to make people act good when they are not good thus creating an injustice, an unfairness.

One, of many, simple alternatives...
When a person commits an evil God, disappears him. In his place God leaves a pile of ashes with a note: "Be good or else this may happen to you". It's just like keeping children in line in December. "Santa's making a list and checking it twice". Many children, or people seeing the pile of ashes, would choose to be good. No one is forced to do any thing, they are "encouraged".

See Trailblazer, we atheists have stopped to think. It's surprising that you and other Christians haven't arrived at this same conclusion.

I sure wish God would eliminate the evil people, but I have no control over an omnipotent God.
I am dealing with an evil lying manipulative tenant right now and God is not going to bail me out... I am stuck having to hire an attorney or defend myself without one.... I have not decided which I will do, I will know after the initial consult. If I did what I want to do, I would eliminate the tenant myself. He would go straight to hell, where he belongs.

First you say we atheists don't think things through. Then you say we never stopped to think how God could eliminate evil without taking over human free will.

So, I give you just one of many ways God could eliminate evil without taking over human free will. Instead of acknowledging it, you sidestep by saying you don't control God and go on a rant about your tenant.

What about your assertion that atheists don't think things through. What about easy ways God could eliminate/reduce evil. Why haven't you, a Christian, thought these things through? Why haven't you, a Christian, come to this same conclusion? Who is not thinking?

Perhaps you realize, somewhere deep down inside, that if you really started thinking, you might find the whole God concept is silly. So, instead, you don't think and ignore the thoughts of those who do.

 

[stvdv]

First you say we atheists don't think things through. Then you say we never stopped to think how God could eliminate evil without taking over human free will.

So, I give you just one of many ways God could eliminate evil without taking over human free will. Instead of acknowledging it, you sidestep by saying you don't control God and go on a rant about your tenant.

What about your assertion that atheists don't think things through. What about easy ways God could eliminate/reduce evil. Why haven't you, a Christian, thought these things through? Why haven't you, a Christian, come to this same conclusion? Who is not thinking?

Perhaps you realize, somewhere deep down inside, that if you really started thinking, you might find the whole God concept is silly. So, instead, you don't think and ignore the thoughts of those who do.

I think Atheists do think things through quite well.
I never thought it through that well myself in the past.
I liked the fairytale of this "magical mystery tour" I guess.

I do think that "God concept" is not the truth, but it has been useful for some time for me
Spiritual life is so huge, so I do not have the arrogance to think I know it all (any time soon)
I do have the humility to admit that there is so much more still to explore for me

I also see that some atheists throw sometimes more overboard than only "God concept"
Thereby missing out on things like "mystical experiences" or even enlightenment
But even if you are a spiritual person, it's very likely you miss out on those also

I prefer to keep my options open; so I gather experiences. For me experiences is all that counts; not reading only

And I also am grateful to the atheists on RF who alert me now and then and keep me sharp not to be too gullible

 

[Trailblazer]

First you say we atheists don't think things through. Then you say we never stopped to think how God could eliminate evil without taking over human free will.

So, I give you just one of many ways God could eliminate evil without taking over human free will. Instead of acknowledging it, you sidestep by saying you don't control God and go on a rant about your tenant.

So your answer is that God could just wipe out (kill) all evil people because God is omnipotent? I acknowledge that answer but I have a rebuttal. An evil person has free will so that evil person can change and become good. Thus it would be an injustice on the part of God to wipe out (kill) an evil person, without giving them a chance to change. Thus your answer does not solve the problem.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219​

Evil people will receive their punishment through courts of law in this life. If justice is not served in this life it will be served in the afterlife, as evil people will have to realize the evil they did and they will suffer knowing that, since they will no longer be able to fool themselves after they die. God might also punish them for their evil, I don’t know.

What about your assertion that atheists don't think things through. What about easy ways God could eliminate/reduce evil. Why haven't you, a Christian, thought these things through? Why haven't you, a Christian, come to this same conclusion? Who is not thinking?

I never asserted that atheists do not think things through in general. I only asserted that you have not thought through how God could eliminate evil without taking over human free will.

I am not a Christian. I am a Baha’i. God is not responsible to eliminate/reduce evil. Humans are responsible to do that. God assists humans ONLY by sending Messengers that have the remedy needed to eliminate evil. Humans have the free will to choose to listen to the Messengers or not. If humans do not pay attention to the Messengers they cannot blame God. God did His part by sending the Messengers.

Perhaps you realize, somewhere deep down inside, that if you really started thinking, you might find the whole God concept is silly. So, instead, you don't think and ignore the thoughts of those who do.

There is nothing silly about the God concept. God has a clearly laid out plan for humanity and it is accessible to anyone who wants it.

 

[ecco]

But even now I think it's a funny way to say it. "We have stopped to think". I mean "stopped thinking to think", or "stopped talking to think" or "stopped life to think"; as if "life can be stopped". Anyway I get it now that this is a normal way to say it in the english language.

Consider this phrase: "I stopped talking long enough to think about what and how I should say something".
Or when seeing a friend about to do something stupid: "Don't do it. Take some time to think about it".

Similarly: "Put brain into gear before operating mouth"

Some Americanisms can be a bit difficult to understand at first glance.

 

[ecco]

There might be one small problem. How to define "omniscient" when you are not "omniscient"?

One does not have to be a goblin in order to define "goblin".

I rely on people whose job it is and has been to define words. I just look up definitions in the dictionary. I also keep in mind that some words have two entirely different meanings. Words like "belief" and "faith".

Very good question: How can anyone who is "not omniscience" say something which makes sense about "omniscience"?

Rationally speaking there is nothing sensical about omniscience. That doesn't mean we can't have fun with and make fun of the concept.

And even more difficult the problem "what about God being omniscient". To know and define "God" is the biggest problem, yet to be solved.

Gods are the creations of man's imaginings. What more do you need to know?

I just had 1 thought. If a father (you) has a son, and at age 4 (of the son) decides to teach him to ride the bicycle.
In your analogy "the logical consequences are that you planned the `fall of your son from his bicycle`". Do I understand this correctly?

That's an interesting analogy.

That would be correct if I intentionally made the bike defective, blindfolded my son, made him ride barefoot and put spikes on the pedals. I would then blame my son for falling off the bike. Then I would take his bike away and never allow him to have another. I would tell his younger sister that she also is not allowed to have a bike because of what her brother did. When they are a little older I would take all their toys away and make them sit in a bathtub of cold water for a day.

As bad as that sounds, it doesn't begin to compare to what God did with A&E.