Fundamentalist Atheists

[IHaveTheGift]

Because we are identifying a factor. What do you have vs what you don't have. Obviously a belief does not equate to a physical object but for the purposes of the debate in "lacking belief" it works quite well.

You have boldly stated that I cannot "lack" a belief I never held in the first place. Why? This doesn't make any sense to me. So I created the chair example. If I have never had a chair do I still not lack a chair? Same for beliefs.

So, if we happen upon people living on a remote island who never seen technology, such as automobiles.
Do they lack belief that autos exist or do they lack knowledge of autos itself?
Belief or lack of is not the same thing as knowledge or lack of knowledge.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

So, if we happen upon people living on a remote island who never seen technology, such as automobiles.
Do they lack belief that autos exist or do they lack knowledge of autos itself?
Belief or lack of is not the same thing as knowledge or lack of knowledge.

Exactly. Though we "know" automobiles exist. We do not "know" if god exists.

Though it should be noted that Atheism-theism does not address one's knowledge of a subject. Agnostic-gnostic does.

 

[Thief]

Blessed are they who have faith...but have not seen.

Saw that written somewhere.

 

[Willamena]

If I did not have a chair. Would I not be lacking a chair? Would it ever matter if I had a chair prior or not? Reguardless of my history with chairs, my knowledge on them, my ownership, usage, ect. If I do not currently have a chair. I am "lacking" a chair.

Now lets replace chair with "belief in god".

If it were impossible that you have a chair, would you be still be lacking a chair?

 

[IHaveTheGift]

Exactly. Though we "know" automobiles exist. We do not "know" if god exists.

Those people on a remote island, do not know if auto's exist.
If I try to explain it to them, they then take on a belief or lack of belief in what I said to them:
"Hey bro, we have metal machines that take us everywhere we wish to go..."

Without the knowledge of auto's I told them, they can not posses lack of belief.
There was a simple lack of knowledge of autos itself.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Maybe that's because I believe in heaven guarded by the angelic.
They've been displayed with sword in hand for centuries.

Sword in hand and lines drawn in the sand.
You know the practice?

If drawn, and they move away.....don't cross the line.

I don't believe apathy is allowed follow.

Regardless of what you believe to be true it holds no bearing on what is. Though it does explain why we have different definitions of atheism.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

If it were impossible that you have a chair, would you be still be lacking a chair?

If logic still follows, yes. Yes I would still lack a chair. The reason for why I do not have a chair doesn't seem to matter. The question is "do you have a chair". If not, for whatever reason, then the answer is "I lack a chair".

Those people on a remote island, do not know if auto's exist.
If I try to explain it to them, they then take on a belief or lack of belief in what I said to them:
"Hey bro, we have metal machines that take us everywhere we wish to go..."

Without the knowledge of auto's I told them, they can not posses lack of belief.
There was a simple lack of knowledge of autos itself.

Do they believe in cars? Prior to you telling them by your definition, yes or no, do they believe in cars?

 

[Thief]

Regardless of what you believe to be true it holds no bearing on what is. Though it does explain why we have different definitions of atheism.

I suspect the declared and the apathetic....share a common fate.
But they are not the same.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I suspect the declared and the apathetic....share a common fate.
But they are not the same.

Are they functionally different? And if yes how so?

 

[IHaveTheGift]

If logic still follows, yes. Yes I would still lack a chair. The reason for why I do not have a chair doesn't seem to matter. The question is "do you have a chair". If not, for whatever reason, then the answer is "I lack a chair".




Do they believe in cars? Prior to you telling them by your definition, yes or no, do they believe in cars?

Belief and knowledge are not the same thing
Lack of belief and lack of knowledge are not the same thing.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Belief and knowledge are not the same thing
Lack of belief and lack of knowledge are not the same thing.

I am looking at X, on my table, explain your lack of belief in the existence of X....
Can to intellectually claim a lack of belief in the existence of X?
You do not even know what X is, how can you take on a lack of belief in its existence or not?
At best, you have the stance of lack of knowledge of what X is.

This is a huge waste of time, if one wishes to claim that X on my table does not exist or might not, they are grasping at air, they do not even know what it is, to even make a stance of belief or non belief it in existing.

So be it.
As you were.

I actually have not claimed that those who have never heard of the concept and those that have but reject it are identical in their positions.

I have simply assessed and provided argument as to the functional reality of "belief".

For example if I live my life without ever hearing of the concept of a magical elf living in my shoes and then someone tells me about the magical elf but I do not believe them...my life and behavior has not changed. My belief has not changed.

Functionally those that are secular with and without knowledge of god concepts are still secular.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Round and round we go, where we stop, no-one knows.

Ok then, good luck with that

Yeah, it's been my experience that no one out there can properly define theism. No wonder they also have such trouble with atheism.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Belief and knowledge are not the same thing

Actually belief and knowledge are just the same thing.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

Yeah, it's been my experience that no one out there can properly define theism. No wonder they also have such trouble with atheism.

Nice goal posting.
Never ever seen anyone in my life argue over the word Theist.
Not in debates held with men with degrees such as Dawkins or Dr Craig, none of them ever debate it with Theist, none...
Theists do not make plays on words to win debates, not even laymen.

It is Atheists all over the web who have conflicting stances on the meaning of Atheism...
Including Dawkins, who tried to twist Atheism to mean "Just one God more" to then try to add Theists as being atheists too.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

Actually belief and knowledge are just the same thing.

Belief:
Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a conjecture or premise to be true. Dispositional and occurrent belief concerns the contextual activation of the belief into thoughts or ideas.

Knowledge:
facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

Not even close to the same thing.
If one has zero knowledge of its "being", he can not take on the psychological state in which an individual holds a conjecture or premise to be true or not.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Nice goal posting.
Never ever seen anyone in my life argue over the word Theist.
Not in debates held with men with degrees such as Dawkins or Dr Craig, none of them ever debate the with Theist, none...
We know what that means.
It is Atheists all over the web who have conflicting stances on the meaning of Atheism...
Including Dawkins, who tried to twist Atheism to mean "Just one God more" to then try to add Theists as being atheists too.

To be fair the "one god more" is an adequate explanation as to why there are atheists and the reality of their stances. I am not a big fan of Dawkins but this was one of his quotes that actually did make a lot of sense, at least in regards to explaining the thought pattern to theists.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Nice goal posting.
Never ever seen anyone in my life argue over the word Theist.

Of course not. I asked you to define it and you refused.

One can't argue if one refuses to argue.

Theists do not make plays on words to win debates, not even laymen.

It is Atheists all over the web who have conflicting stances on the meaning of Atheism...

Theists and atheists. Atheists and theists. You haven't really thought deeply about the God question, I think.

Maybe we can try again a little further down the road.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

To be fair the "one god more" is an adequate explanation as to why there are atheists and the reality of their stances. I am not a big fan of Dawkins but this was one of his quotes that actually did make a lot of sense, at least in regards to explaining the thought pattern to theists.

So, we are all Vegans then too, if there is even one meat we have never eaten nor wish to eat, such as ones poisonous to us or things such as pets?

Gee, why do we even have a dictionary, and titles of things if we are going to change their meanings to win debates?
Why dont we just go back to caveman days and grunt and point? :sarcastic

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Belief:
Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a conjecture or premise to be true. Dispositional and occurrent belief concerns the contextual activation of the belief into thoughts or ideas.

Knowledge:
facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

Anyone can quote their favorite definitions from their preferred dictionaries.

But it takes a thoughtful person, with real language skills, to defend the position that belief and knowledge are two different things.

Even then, it can't be done. But it can be attempted.

If you'd like to try, review some of the forum threads on the subject (especially my own humble contributions) and start a thread about it.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

Of course not. I asked you to define it and you refused.

:sarcastic
This was what you said:
"Yeah, it's been my experience that no one out there can properly define theism. No wonder they also have such trouble with atheism.".....

Theists and atheists. Atheists and theists. You haven't really thought deeply about the God question, I think.

Maybe we can try again a little further down the road.

What you are doing now is goal post switching.
Atheists are the one lacking belief, not Theists...
Atheists all over the web are the ones with conflicting definitions of Atheism itself.
Theists don't has such problems with our stance.
We believe in God, its that simple.