Further tensions between India and China

[Stevicus]

India accuses China of 'provocative military movements' near border

India and China have accused each other of military provocation and violating sovereign territory along their disputed Himalayan border, escalating tensions between the two sides which have been locked in a months-long standoff.

A statement by India’s defence ministry accused the China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA) of carrying out “provocative military movements to change the status quo” on the southern bank of Pangong Lake in Ladakh, which lies at an altitude of 4,200 metres (13,800ft).

India said China had moved large numbers of troops into the disputed territory over the weekend, which it said “violated the previous consensus arrived at during military and diplomatic engagements”.

India claimed to have thwarted the Chinese move and said it “undertook measures to strengthen our positions”, stating that while the Indian army was committed to maintaining peace, it was “equally determined to protect its territorial integrity”.

China claimed that it was Indian troops who had engaged in “open provocation and caused the border situation to become tense”. “The Chinese military is taking necessary countermeasures,” the People’s Liberation Army’s regional command said in a statement, accusing India of “seriously violating China’s territorial sovereignty”.

China’s foreign ministry said Chinese border troops “never cross the line of actual control”. “Both sides are in communication regarding the situation on the ground,” the Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said at a news briefing on Monday.

Commanders from both sides met on Monday in the Ladakh village of Chushul to try to resolve the issue.

So, it looks like they're still fighting over this disputed region.

Some in India are boycotting Chinese products, and the Indian government has just banned Tik Tok.

The dispute between the two nuclear-armed countries began in early May when China began building up troops and artillery in the area, including along Pangong Lake. Verbal warnings and stone-throwing were reported between the two sides.

In June it escalated into a full-blown assault in Galwan Valley, the worst violence between the two sides since 1967, as soldiers engaged in hand-to-hand combat with rocks and spiked clubs at an altitude of about 4,250 metres (14,000ft), which led to the deaths of 20 Indian soldiers. The number of Chinese casualties is not known.

The two sides publicly pledged to de-escalate and move troops back to their previous positions. However, multiple rounds of diplomatic and military-level discussion have failed to make progress and India and China have remained in a deadlock.

Chinese troops remain at key Indian posts in Pangong Lake, continuing to build roads, helipads and radar towers, and in recent days China was reported to have deployed fighter jets near the border.

In response, India has continued to build up infrastructure on its side of the “line of actual control”, and continued to carry out air patrols. The provocation from China has also led to widespread calls for a boycott of Chinese goods and services in India, and the Indian government recently banned dozens of Chinese-made apps, including the popular video app TikTok, over concerns of data privacy.

Does anyone think this could escalate into a full-blown conflict? Who is the aggressor here? Each side is blaming the other for having stinky farts, but it's hard to tell just which side started all this. China blames Indian, and India blames China.

Overall, China seems to have the more belligerent government when comparing the two of them. Someone in the NBA says something against China, and their government goes absolutely ballistic, yet you never hear any of that kind of stuff from the Indian government. China seems more aggressive and more geopolitically ambitious, so I'm guessing that it's China that's the aggressor here.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Seems like there are a lot of China vs. other country, feuds these days.

 

[sun rise]

China is being aggressive with their military and economic power toward the US, India, Africa (economically) and in the seas around China. They also destroyed what was left of Hong Kong's independence.

I don't think we'll see an all-out slug fest given the weapons that countries have but I do expect the current shoving matches to continue.

 

[Tambourine]

Another possibility is that these days, American-centric news media is simply much more eager to report news of Chinese aggression than it used to be, back when China was still considered a valuable trading partner rather than a dangerous rival to US dominance on the world stage.

 

[Cooky]

China seems to have a lust for power-play moves. It's a provocative regime, that takes joy in "winning".

 

[Cooky]

Another possibility is that these days, American-centric news media is simply much more eager to report news of Chinese aggression than it used to be, back when China was still considered a valuable trading partner rather than a dangerous rival to US dominance on the world stage.

You should try reading Indian news if you think this is a U.S. based spin on reality.

 

[Howard Is]

Does anyone think this could escalate into a full-blown conflict?

For a while now I’ve been suggesting an alliance of India, Russia and the US versus China.
If Trump wins again, which unfortunately I think is likely, despite the polls, that is even more likely. Trump is besotted with Putin.

It would take that alliance to defeat China.

There is a short window of opportunity to prevent China from achieving sufficient military power to dominate the world.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Each side is blaming the other for having stinky farts, but it's hard to tell just which side started all this.
Overall, China seems to have the more belligerent government when comparing the two of them.

If you know, then why do you ask. However, India can take care of itself (ah yes, we have a few friends). In the last skirmish, the Chinese are reported to have lost 106 persons to India's 20 or 21. It will be a long-term conflict. I do not think it will turn into a full scale war. Both sides have bombs.

Galwan Valley faceoff: Pictures of graves of Chinese soldiers go viral on social media

For a while now I’ve been suggesting an alliance of India, Russia and the US versus China.
.. Trump is besotted with Putin.
It would take that alliance to defeat China.

Why would Russia join against China?
Trump is besotted with Putin. Is Putin besotted with Trump?
The real problem is Europe, which will do nothing to deter China till it dominates them too.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

India seems as unable to come to an agreement over borders with Pakistan as with China.
As China has far closer ties with India's enemy Pakistan, than it has ever had with India, it is not surprising that India also sees China as an enemy too.

The sad fact is that China and India have a great deal to offer each other and could make very powerful alliance.
It is not with out possibility that other powers are stirring the pot to keep them apart. It would be in the interest of both Russia and the USA to do so.

Interestingly China is in alliance with Russia in the supply and design of both aircraft and submarines,
with what was the junior partner China, now overtaking Russia in both fields.

Strangely North Korea is the country with the most submarines in the world. but all diesel powered.
China has the most fighting ships but with rather less firepower than the USA navy. China considers a large number of smaller ships to be the better option when it come to attrition rate, and re-supply.
The USA does not have the shipbuilding capacity to keep pace with China in a naval war situation, and would inevitably lose such a conflict.

An interesting article on the American naval ship building capacity
Five Problems That Could Torpedo America's Naval Shipbuilding Capability
A very dangerous factor is the number of single source supply issues, that could jeopardise the entire construction endeavour, were these factories to be targeted by an enemy. These are all with in range of submarine missile strikes so are a very real weakness.

 

[Stevicus]

If you know, then why do you ask.

Well, I don't know for sure.

 

[stvdv]

Who is the aggressor here?

so I'm guessing that it's China that's the aggressor here.

I would be surprised if it were the other way around
So much surprised, I'd consider psyche evaluation

 

[Howard Is]

Seems like there are a lot of China vs. other country, feuds these days.

Xi is definitely throwing his weight around. The South China Sea, USA, India, and even Australia is being ‘gently threatened’.

It is the time of the new Emperors.

They’re making Trump jealous. Now he wants to be an Emperor too.

We are the chess pieces in their psychopathic games.

 

[Stevicus]

India seems as unable to come to an agreement over borders with Pakistan as with China.
As China has far closer ties with India's enemy Pakistan, than it has ever had with India, it is not surprising that India also sees China as an enemy too.

The sad fact is that China and India have a great deal to offer each other and could make very powerful alliance.
It is not with out possibility that other powers are stirring the pot to keep them apart. It would be in the interest of both Russia and the USA to do so.

I suppose it's a possibility that the US or other outside powers could be stirring the pot, but I'm not sure how. The US has also had a close relationship with Pakistan, but I think we've tried to remain neutral on this territorial dispute.

India and Russia have had generally good relations overall. Trump and Modi seem to have a minor bromance going. Both have concerns about China. China doesn't appear very well liked by other countries in its own region.

Interestingly China is in alliance with Russia in the supply and design of both aircraft and submarines,
with what was the junior partner China, now overtaking Russia in both fields.

Strangely North Korea is the country with the most submarines in the world. but all diesel powered.
China has the most fighting ships but with rather less firepower than the USA navy. China considers a large number of smaller ships to be the better option when it come to attrition rate, and re-supply.
The USA does not have the shipbuilding capacity to keep pace with China in a naval war situation, and would inevitably lose such a conflict.

An interesting article on the American naval ship building capacity
Five Problems That Could Torpedo America's Naval Shipbuilding Capability
A very dangerous factor is the number of single source supply issues, that could jeopardise the entire construction endeavour, were these factories to be targeted by an enemy. These are all with in range of submarine missile strikes so are a very real weakness.

The article you link here points up the fact that the shipbuilding industry has been hurt by outsourcing and the mad capitalist rush for cheap labor wherever they can find it. Now, they're finding that the labor pool of skilled industrial labor has shrunk - because nobody is going to take the time to learn how to do a job if there are no jobs to be had. We knew about this back when we recklessly embarked on this free trade crusade which both parties supported.

We knew that free trade would cause our industrial base to diminish and that we would find ourselves with shortages of skilled industrial labor. We knew the risks going in, yet the politicians and capitalists supported it with reckless abandon. It's partly the reason why we're currently at odds with China, and it's partly the reason why Trump won in 2016.

Of course, saying that America is weak and that our enemies are stronger is an old tactic. They said things like that during the Cold War, although it came out years later that our government grossly overestimated Soviet military capabilities in order to justify greater expenditures on defense.

 

[Stevicus]

China's Military Has Surpassed US in Ships, Missiles and Air Defense, DoD Report Finds

China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) has already surpassed the U.S. in missile development and its number of warships and air defense systems under the Chinese Communist Party's plan to achieve dominance by 2049, the Defense Department said in a sobering report Tuesday.

The ultimate goal of the People's Republic of China, or PRC, is to "develop a military by mid-Century that is equal to -- or in some cases superior to -- the U.S. military, or that of any other great power that the PRC views as a threat," the DoD's annual report to Congress said.

At an earlier Pentagon briefing on the report, Sbragia said Beijing's military strategy was driven by the view that the U.S. has decided upon a long period of confrontation to counter the global spread of China's influence.

He said that China "increasingly views the United States as more willing to confront Beijing on matters where the U.S. and PRC interests are inimical."

"The CCP leaders view the United States' security alliances and partnerships -- especially those in the Indo-Pacific region -- as destabilizing and irreconcilable with China's interests," Sbragia said.

The DoD report, titled "Military and Security Developments Involving the People's Republic of China" comes about two weeks before Congress is set to return from recess to convene a Senate-House Conference Committee on the National Defense Authorization Act and the defense budget for Fiscal Year 2021.

Defense Secretary Mark Esper has acknowledged downward pressures on the defense budget to offset the enormous costs of the COVID-19 response while arguing for sustained increases of 3-5% in defense spending in future years to maintain U.S. superiority and readiness.

Of course, the DoD report recommends an increase in defense spending. That's to be expected.