Garner Incident-if you can say "I can't breathe," guess what you can breathe

[Revoltingest]

Some news about one of the cops (the choker)....
Eric Garner choke-hold cop sued in prior misconduct cases

The white New York City police officer whose choke hold led to the death of an unarmed black man has been sued three times for allegedly violating the constitutional rights of other black people that he and fellow cops....

 

[McBell]

Resisting arrest does not by itself warrant killing a suspect-- only if there's a eminent danger to one's self or to others, and this does not apply in the Garner incident.

other than yourself, who has made this claim?

 

[McBell]

I wasn't arrested at all. Not being dead, the question about contributing factors is moot.

i was pretty sure you didn't die either....

... but since you bring it up, would it be responsible for a police officer to use techniques that can kill someone with a common health condition (e.g. asthma) when lethal force wouldn't normally be called for? Should it be a surprise to the police that some of the people they arrest have asthma or other health conditions?

I have already flat out stated I believe the officers in the Garner case did a poor job in the execution of the arrest.

The choke hold used should have never been used.
That it was used is irresponsible.

No, it should not be a surprise.


now let me ask you...
Do you believe that Garners death was intentional and or premeditated?[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

now let me ask you...
Do you believe that Garners death was intentional and or premeditated?

Not in the sense that death was the desired outcome, no. However, I think they realized that their tactics were risky and used them anyway. I think it was foreseeable to them that they were putting Garner's life at risk.

 

[metis]

other than yourself, who has made this claim?

I brought in the police, FBI, and/or the Border Patrol each semester in my political science class, and when asked, this is what they all of them stated, namely that deadly force is not to be used if there is no physical threat, and threat to property simply does not qualify. BTW, the same applies to the rest of us as well.

 

[metis]

No, the first action taken was whatever started the altercation. I don't know what that was, but it didn't involve the police.

Mr. Garner was a freakish combination of huge(350#), belligerently uncooperative, and physically fragile. The cop shouldn't have done what he did, but he did not cause Garner's death. Garner's physical ailments did.

It is a tragedy that Garner died. Everybody agrees with that. But he didn't die because he was black, or because the police singled him out for abuse. He died because he made some bad choices. The cop reverted to his training in a tense situation, and what used to be standard procedure was too much force in this particular case.

Arresting people is a dangerous job. People are free to do what they want, up to a point. But when they have passed that point I do not expect the police to do a hospital records search before they do their job.

Tom

Choke-holds simply are not allowed under NYPD guidelines, and that along with some other factors helped lead to Garner's premature death. This is a "gimme" according to the coroner's report. With seven officers at the scene, there's simply no reason whatsoever that the choke-hold maneuver had to be done, and that officer needs to be held responsible.

 

[Thief]

The radio report I heard did say....the vascular choke is allowed....
It was the unfortunate application of the windpipe constriction that you see in the video.

But hey...try to apply the vascular maneuver on a large person.

It proves easier if you can get your shoulders above his.
Rather difficult from standing positions.

so yep...the forearm went across the windpipe.

I have no doubt the intent was to pull back and drop the big guy on his butt.
Too bad that didn't work.

 

[Revoltingest]

I brought in the police, FBI, and/or the Border Patrol each semester in my political science class, and when asked, this is what they all of them stated, namely that deadly force is not to be used if there is no physical threat, and threat to property simply does not qualify. BTW, the same applies to the rest of us as well.

This "threat to property" stuff is tricky. No one should lose life or limb for breaking a window to steal a TV. But then, no one should break a window to steal a TV. Cops won't protect my business, so it's up to me. If I want to stop a looter from stealing my TV, I can't just sternly say, "Don't wreck my business. That's wrong!". The threat of force is much more effective, & I see it as my right to defend myself & my property. Moreover, if looters faced fell opposition to their vandalism & thievery, it would have a restraining effect.

 

[Thief]

This "threat to property" stuff is tricky. No one should lose life or limb for breaking a window to steal a TV. But then, no one should break a window to steal a TV. Cops won't protect my business, so it's up to me. If I want to stop a looter from stealing my TV, I can't just sternly say, "Don't wreck my business. That's wrong!". The threat of force is much more effective, & I see it as my right to defend myself & my property. Moreover, if looters faced fell opposition to their vandalism & thievery, it would have a restraining effect.

How about a 9mm to the ceiling above his head....and the words.... get out!

 

[metis]

The radio report I heard did say....the vascular choke is allowed....
It was the unfortunate application of the windpipe constriction that you see in the video.

But hey...try to apply the vascular maneuver on a large person.

It proves easier if you can get your shoulders above his.
Rather difficult from standing positions.

so yep...the forearm went across the windpipe.

I have no doubt the intent was to pull back and drop the big guy on his butt.
Too bad that didn't work.

He was choked even though there were seven officers present, so why does this in any way excuse this?

 

[Thief]

He was choked even though there were seven officers present, so why does this in any way excuse this?

Frontal assault instead?.......
Got a technique for that?

 

[metis]

Frontal assault instead?.......
Got a technique for that?

What does this have to do with what happened?

 

[Thief]

What does this have to do with what happened?

Well gee.....an arrest was in progress.
Sure, seven cops.....and one large resistant guy.....
And no one is going anywhere, but to jail....and the big guy doesn't want to.

Shall we kick his knee first?
Pop him on the head with a club?
Or just go straight for the taser?

Oh....maybe a take down from behind might work?
ooops......no.....the big guy had health problems.

I wonder if the bop on the head with a night stick would have been easier?

 

[Revoltingest]

How about a 9mm to the ceiling above his head....and the words.... get out!

I don't use 9mm. Moreover, I wouldn't fire into my own ceiling...I'd pick a safer direction for a warning shot.

Note: Clubbing someone in the head can cause permanent brain damage & death. But it's above my pay grade to set specific policy on non-lethal methods cops should use.

 

[Thief]

I don't use 9mm. Moreover, I wouldn't fire into my own ceiling...I'd pick a safer direction for a warning shot.

Not straight up....silly.

 

[Thief]

I don't use 9mm. Moreover, I wouldn't fire into my own ceiling...I'd pick a safer direction for a warning shot.

Note: Clubbing someone in the head can cause permanent brain damage & death. But it's above my pay grade to set specific policy on non-lethal methods cops should use.

Do you have a preferred technique of subduing that resistant?
Be creative.

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you have a preferred technique of subduing that resistant?
Be creative.

I don't have expertise in subduing people.
It would be reckless to guess at it.

 

[Thief]

I don't have expertise in subduing people.
It would be reckless to guess at it.

Well I do.
Generally speaking a face to face attempt is tricky.
Surprise from behind tends to be quick.

Go at the large fellow when he can see you coming and the fight will be on.
If you can surprise and topple him over backwards, it's over in seconds.

Too bad it didn't play well.
Too bad people don't get the concept of ....arrest.

 

[metis]

Well gee.....an arrest was in progress.
Sure, seven cops.....and one large resistant guy.....
And no one is going anywhere, but to jail....and the big guy doesn't want to.

Shall we kick his knee first?
Pop him on the head with a club?
Or just go straight for the taser?

Oh....maybe a take down from behind might work?
ooops......no.....the big guy had health problems.

I wonder if the bop on the head with a night stick would have been easier?

This is a completely nonsensical response, and the only thing you're really telling me is that you value human life so little and prefer to play little games instead. An accident is an accident, so bad things can happen that simply are accidents, no doubt; but when someone dies because an officer refuses to obey the rules of engagement, which were put there for a reason, and whereas he had other officers there to help him out, there simply is no excuse for doing what he did.

Your response above is morally repugnant, imo, because the officer had other options, and what he did resulted in a death that probably could have been avoided. Since you believe in God, do you honestly believe God would agree with you on this? Really?

 

[Thief]

This is a completely nonsensical response, and the only thing you're really telling me is that you value human life so little and prefer to play little games instead. An accident is an accident, so bad things can happen that simply are accidents, no doubt; but when someone dies because an officer refuses to obey the rules of engagement, which were put there for a reason, and whereas he had other officers there to help him out, there simply is no excuse for doing what he did.

Your response above is morally repugnant, imo, because the officer had other options, and what he did resulted in a death that probably could have been avoided. Since you believe in God, do you honestly believe God would agree with you on this? Really?

Angels carry swords.
The peace of heaven is guarded.