McBell
Unbound
If it is already illegal, why would the police force need to ban it?
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Garner Incident-if you can say "I can't breathe," guess what you can breathe
- Thread starter CMike
- Start date
One possible view:
Everything cops aggressively do is illegal, but they're given special dispensation when necessary, eg, to detain us, to beat us, to shoot us. But some things are denied them, eg, choke holds. So perhaps statutes against assault make it illegal, & departmental policy fails to exempt cops from some techniques.
Last edited:
gnomon
Well-Known Member
Really? By whom? And if it is truly illegal please cite the relevant statute.
At exactly what moment do you see this? (cite the beginning and ending times in the video)
Pretty much make it all up as you go on, don't you.
Forgive me for doubting your knowledge of the law, but after your other remark I have no choice.
Namely that a 1993 New York times report stated that the chokehold was declared banned by the NYPD.
If you want the time in regards to compression placed upon the subjects back I can only say watch the video at the point when Garner was placed upon the ground following the chokehold and a knee was placed upon his back.
I'm not making anything up. The video clearly showed a police officer placing a chokehold on Garner and continued the hold when Garner was on the ground, more police officers moved in in which the man who placed the chokehold put his hand on Garners head and his knee on his back while other officers converged before an officer blocked the view of the camera taking the video.
Never mind the fact of two separate coroner reports stating that the mind died of an obstructed airway.
But educate me. Please. I always am willing to change my mind based upon a reasonable response.
But know this. I didn't make anything up. It's right there in the video provided and the coroners report. So if I'm making something up I must have fabricated the video and written the coroners report myself.
I expect better of you Skwim. You know me. Reason is what matters. The officer put a chokehold on him and jumped his back with that hold in place rather than attempting at least a basic arm block on the man to take him down.
I will admit my misappropriation of the term illegal when a barred NYPD practice was the actual statement I should have used.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
You are correct.
Yet, this correction doesn't remove the officer involved from any liability.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Yes, the policed dept. banned the choke hold, but banned doesn't come close to being illegal.gnomon said:
You're the one making the claim that this was done, not me. I didn't see it. So the onus is on you to tell us when this was done.
Knee on his back huh. Well, I don't see it so you better tell us exactly what time this occurred.
Then how about showing them to us, because the only thing I read was the statement carried by CNN (see post 5)
""The cause of Garner's death was "compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," said Julie Bolcer, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office. The death was ruled a homicide.
Acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were listed as contributing conditions in a controversial death that sparked anti-police demonstrations and calls for a federal investigation."
Acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were listed as contributing conditions in a controversial death that sparked anti-police demonstrations and calls for a federal investigation."
The contributing factors to Garner's death then, were
Principle factors
1) compression of neck
2) compression of chest
3) prone positioning during physical restraint
Contributing factors2) compression of chest
3) prone positioning during physical restraint
4) acute and chronic bronchial asthma
5) obesity
6) hypertensive cardiovascular disease
5) obesity
6) hypertensive cardiovascular disease
The choke hold was not singled out.
Fine. Just give us the:
1) video times when a knee was placed on his back.
2) video times when the police officer who applied the choke hold kneeled on his back
2) video times when the police officer who applied the choke hold kneeled on his back
and the
3) coroner's report stating that the "mind died of an obstructed airway."
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
HA! Years ago here police tased an elderly man with advanced Alzheimer's. Some big brave hero he was ready to face whatever is in front of him.
Police should not have total control over us like that, putting us into a situation of comply or die. That is going way too deep into a police state.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Both lines are the extreme.
Once more......Don't wave your hands at the police and say.....don't touch me.
What's so hard about that?
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
Nope, in this case it is pretty black and white. Assaulting someone is illegal pretty much universally. Maybe the only grey area here, and I say maybe because NY is pretty strict about self defense, but maybe the only grey area is if you are preventing harm to yourself or someone else. If you're not going to argue that the police feared for their life or someone else's then it's moot. A choke hold is illegal.
So you don't think it's assault to perform a choke hold on people? So if you go out an put a choke hold on someone you don't think you will go to jail for assault?
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
Yes, so heroic how they killed that man who was selling cigarettes. They deserve a medal of valor for taking down the mastermind scamming the government out of tens of pennies.
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
It was an overreation perhaps..... but if he had not been committing an illegal act, he would still be alive
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
If the police had just given him a citation he would still be alive. If the police hadn't used unnecessary force he would still be alive. If the EMTs actually tried to render medical aid he would still be alive. If the police were regularly held accountable for their actions the officer who killed him might have thought twice about using unnecessary force and he would still be alive. If the officer who killed him had been fired after the first time he was sued for rights violations, Garner would still be alive. If the police don't escalate every situation they are involved in into a violent altercation he would still be alive. If we didn't allow the government the power to arrest people who owe them money he would still be alive.
And if you really believe the police only violently arrest people who are committing illegal acts, you haven't been paying attention.
And if he hadn't been standing at that corner. If he hadn't had 5 officers surrounding him. If he hadn't put his hands up. If he hadn't said, "Don't touch me."
Yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah.
We spend way too much time exonerating those who batter or kill while pontificating how the dead deserved it. It's telling in regards to who and what we prefer to protect. And it's telling in terms of who we regard as fully human.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
”the choke hold may not have been a relevant factor at all.” You are creating a myth here my friend.
I followed this link and it says the same thing, “chokehold” was the cause of Garner’s death.
“The cause of Garner's death was "compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," said Julie Bolcer, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office. The death was ruled a homicide.” -CNN
“Chokehold” was the main cause according to the ME.
Contributing factors cause by the main cause were the ff:
“Acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were listed as contributing conditions in a controversial death that sparked anti-police demonstrations and calls for a federal investigation.” -CNN
If it wasn’t for the “chokehold” he probably still be alive today and the chance of dying from the “contributing factors” is very slim, and those are, “Acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease”, and that is without the “chokehold”. IOW, the “contributing factors” would not be a factor at all if it wasn’t for the “chokehold”.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Some just love to fabricate excuses while avoiding the basic reality, namely that Garner's death was at least partially responsible for a choke hold put on him by the officer, according to the coroner's report:
The New York City medical examiner's office also offered pertinent facts when it classified Garner's death as a homicide this summer. He died because of a "compression of neck (chokehold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," the office found, while also calling Garner's "acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease" contributing factors.
In other words, there was a chokehold, and it played a part in Garner's death. -- Was the chokehold on Eric Garner necessary? - CNN.com
Also, a reminder that a grand jury is supposed to look for "probable cause", so the bar for bringing such a charge is very low. It is not a trial whereas the evidence must be clear and "beyond a reasonable doubt".
One of the things that bothers me with this grand jury testimony is that they haven't released it as they did with the Ferguson situation, which at least for some of us helped to clear the air. This is very important because we should know exactly what were the directions and information that was provided to the grand jurors by the prosecution and was that appropriate based on the actual situation? There quite easily could be a conflict of interest here.
Also, this should not be a liberal-conservative, Republican-Democrat, or black-white thingy, but some unfortunately are making it as such. I do expect the fed to likely bring charges of some type, and there could also be civil charges brought by the family, so we'll have to see how this all plays out.
The New York City medical examiner's office also offered pertinent facts when it classified Garner's death as a homicide this summer. He died because of a "compression of neck (chokehold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," the office found, while also calling Garner's "acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease" contributing factors.
In other words, there was a chokehold, and it played a part in Garner's death. -- Was the chokehold on Eric Garner necessary? - CNN.com
Also, a reminder that a grand jury is supposed to look for "probable cause", so the bar for bringing such a charge is very low. It is not a trial whereas the evidence must be clear and "beyond a reasonable doubt".
One of the things that bothers me with this grand jury testimony is that they haven't released it as they did with the Ferguson situation, which at least for some of us helped to clear the air. This is very important because we should know exactly what were the directions and information that was provided to the grand jurors by the prosecution and was that appropriate based on the actual situation? There quite easily could be a conflict of interest here.
Also, this should not be a liberal-conservative, Republican-Democrat, or black-white thingy, but some unfortunately are making it as such. I do expect the fed to likely bring charges of some type, and there could also be civil charges brought by the family, so we'll have to see how this all plays out.
McBell
Unbound
So, once again no source to provide?
You should really stop trying to read between the lines.
You suck at it.
McBell
Unbound
Please be so kind as to present the post where someone even implied that garner was not "fully human"?
Seems this is nothing more than a sad attempt at appeal to emotion.
When I notice somebody who is unarmed and unnecessarily killed by those sworn to protect and serve, and there are folks who focus much more on what the unarmed dead could have done differently to avoid being killed in such a manner, there is a nudge in the direction of de-humanizing the subject.
You may see appeal to emotion. I see a lack of humanity.
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
You're asking for a source that a choke hold is assault. This implies you are skeptical that performing a choke hold is assaulting someone. Feel free to clarify because that's not at all a flawed interpretation of your logic. Seriously, you're arguing a choke hold isn't illegal, where in NY is a choke hold not illegal?
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Well, I can agree with most of that, except the ending. Coppers act off attitude a lot of time, the individuals attitude that is. Now don't get me wrong, I am not likely to send any of them a Christmas card anytime soon, but it is evident that if you do what they tell you, you would not get problems. I have worked with the general public. If the police say jump, jump. If everyone did not commit crimes and were polite with the police, we would not hear all this. Everytime I see something on tv where something like this happens, there is always things that lead up to it. We cannot have anarchy. If they say do something, you have to be seen to do it, otherwise people would do what they want.
Be careful out there!