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Garner Incident-if you can say "I can't breathe," guess what you can breathe

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
These are my thoughts after watching the video.

Garner resisted arrest. If you resione pst arrest you aren't going to be treated gently.

The headlock/chockehold or whatever it was didn't stop Garner from breathing.

How do we know this? Because during the hold Garner kept saying "I can't breathe, I can't breathe".

Well, guess what? If you can say repeatedly "I can't breathe", you can breathe.

He died mainly because of his health conditions; asthma, heart issues, etc.

I think the moral of the story is that if you have health problems, don't resist arrest.

Let the flames begin.
I saw this thread a few times and ignored and because I still can't sleep since the last time my laptop told me it was 12/12, I decided to respond, but only under the condition that I read the OP. I know nothing of this incident, and usually I'd use RF to find out what the story involved. Here I thought I'd try something new. I have something of an advantage in this case, or this would certainly be pointless. It may be anyway, as another might have already stated what I am about to. In comvatives and martial arts there are sometimes very distinct differences between what seem to be the same thing. This is so with strangle/choke holds. We can all hold our breath for a fairly long period of time. That's because when we can't breathe the blood that circulates in our bodies and to our brains continues to circulate, our brains continue to receive enough "fuel" to continue to be conscious and after losing consciousness to continue to live. Stopping the breath in this fashion will ensure unconsciousness, but it can take half a minute or more.

Other holds do not stop the breath. They "pinch" the arteries that feed the brain. Such strangle/choke holds don't take half a minute to a minute. They take anywhere from 3 to 8 seconds.

Common holds (or a few holds that are common) do both. But it is possible for a hold to prevent the blood from reaching the brain but allow breath. Of course, in such cases one can't usually speak, but some minimal speak is I suppose possible (I haven't seen it).

More importantly, anybody with asthma, panic disorders, or other conditions which can result in rapid breath and the experience of of lack of air will tell you that one can say "I can't breath" when one is being strangled to death.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Sorry SW you are wrong. People go to nearby lower tax states and buy the lower priced cigarettes and offer their customers a good deal for buyer and seller.

Smoke prices are all over the place, in Kentucky you can buy a pack for less than 5 dollars. Just a few States away the going price can be twice that or more, all due to anal anti-tobacco tax laws.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Sorry SW you are wrong. People go to nearby lower tax states and buy the lower priced cigarettes and offer their customers a good deal for buyer and seller.

Smoke prices are all over the place, in Kentucky you can buy a pack for less than 5 dollars. Just a few States away the going price can be twice that or more, all due to anal anti-tobacco tax laws.
This seems just as much an argument for a uniform federal cigarette tax as it is for no tax at all.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Sorry SW you are wrong. People go to nearby lower tax states and buy the lower priced cigarettes and offer their customers a good deal for buyer and seller.

Smoke prices are all over the place, in Kentucky you can buy a pack for less than 5 dollars. Just a few States away the going price can be twice that or more, all due to anal anti-tobacco tax laws.
I'm very aware of that. I used to smoke, where I live borders Kentucky, and I know many people who would give money to someone going down to Kentucky to pick them up some cheap smokes.
But you have to prove this case deals with cigarette taxes, and not just someone illegally reselling cigarettes. You don't have to actually go to a state with lower prices to do this, and even in Indiana, by purchasing cigarettes in this state, you can easily make $20 dollars off a $5 or $6 dollar pack if you resell each cigarette.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I guess what I am saying is, the fat old guy who died was not doing that much wrong.
This we agree on. Even if he was selling to minors, these kids would have found another way (here, at a rural high school, it usually meant $5 or $10 bucks plus a ride home for a $3 pack of smokes), he did not deserve to die (for all we know the money could have been extra money for drugs or necessary money for feeding his family), and the cop was in the wrong for using such a hold in a situation which presented a very minimal threat to the safety of the cops.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Was it necessary? I don't think so.
Was the choke hold banned from cops using it? Yes.
Given the guy's demeanor (lucid & non-threatening), I would've spent more time just talking to him before resorting to violence.
I should have said. "why did he think it was necessary to use a banned choke hold to bring him down, and three others to assist? And why they didn't spend more time talking to him is anyone's guess. My suspicion is that Garner was exhibiting the same behavior as in others that in the past eventually did lead to a physical take down: a matter of "enough back talk; let's get this thing over and get him in custody."
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I should have said. "why did he think it was necessary to use a banned choke hold to bring him down, and three others to assist? And why they didn't spend more time talking to him is anyone's guess. My suspicion is that Garner was exhibiting the same behavior as in others that in the past eventually did lead to a physical take down: a matter of "enough back talk; let's get this thing over and get him in custody."
Hmmmm.....I can imagine the cops thinking to themselves, "Heaven forbid we waste half an hour or so talking this guy down....let's just thump'm now....it's not like anyone would suffer....anyone who matters, that is.".
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Hmmmm.....I can imagine the cops thinking to themselves, "Heaven forbid we waste half an hour or so talking this guy down....let's just thump'm now....it's not like anyone would suffer....anyone who matters, that is.".
Taking you seriously, I'm surprised you would resort to such exaggeration.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Taking you seriously, I'm surprised you would resort to such exaggeration.
I'm not exaggerating. I'm mocking the idea that the cops would've taken the measures they did in the interest of saving time.

Note: Any time I make up a quote which begins with "Heaven", you may safely assume I'm making both mirth & a point.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'm not exaggerating. I'm mocking the idea that the cops would've taken the measures they did in the interest of saving time.
Think, "Okay let's let the guy protest for awhile longer, then take we'll him down" is rational or serves some purpose? I don't. Cops have better things to do then wait until the big hand reaches 12 before acting.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Think, "Okay let's let the guy protest for awhile longer, then take we'll him down" is rational or serves some purpose? I don't. Cops have better things to do then wait until the big hand reaches 12 before acting.
Specifically what did you have in mind that is so important that the police should be doing that it is not worth spending a half hour talking to this guy so that they can handle the situation safely? I agree that the police have very important things to do. But this is important. Talking to people is important. Police need to know how to deal with people safely, respectfully and effectively. That is important. What these cops did was not safe (this was not the safest course of action even in terms of their own safety), it was certainly not respectful, and it was absolutely not effective. Spending a little time would have been time well spent. Remember if their task was to arrest this person, they failed. They could have succeed if the spent the time needed.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Yes. Give him a citation and walk away. Police shouldn't have the authority to escalate a situation. If no violence is being committed then police should have to find a non-violent solution to the problem.

Disobedience is dealt with arrest.

So maybe he was told ....move on.....
and didn't.

Any confirmation?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Spending a little time would have been time well spent. Remember if their task was to arrest this person, they failed. They could have succeed if the spent the time needed.
What brand of crystal ball are you using?

_______________________________________________________


Yes. Give him a citation and walk away. Police shouldn't have the authority to escalate a situation. If no violence is being committed then police should have to find a non-violent solution to the problem.
From an article on the selling-cigarettes-illegally aspect.

"So the City of New York is all out of shape that its 13-dollar-per-pack taxes are not being collected due to the black market for cigarettes that's sprung up due to all of these taxes. So what do they then do? They mandate. They mandate. They call the police commissioner, and they tell him, "You get your members of the force locked and loaded on this. I want people arrested. I want examples made. I want to get these black market cigarettes off the street. I want to get 'em out of town, and anybody selling 'em I want dealt with."
source
So a citation wasn't an option.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Specifically what did you have in mind that is so important that the police should be doing that it is not worth spending a half hour talking to this guy so that they can handle the situation safely? I agree that the police have very important things to do. But this is important. Talking to people is important. Police need to know how to deal with people safely, respectfully and effectively. That is important. What these cops did was not safe (this was not the safest course of action even in terms of their own safety), it was certainly not respectful, and it was absolutely not effective. Spending a little time would have been time well spent. Remember if their task was to arrest this person, they failed. They could have succeed if the spent the time needed.
Yes, this.
I'm sure their next pressing engagement will still be there later.
th
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
What brand of crystal ball are you using?
I am using reasonable judgement based on what I saw in that video and what I know about human nature. This is the kind of reasonable judgement we should be expecting from the police.

From an article on the selling-cigarettes-illegally aspect.

"So the City of New York is all out of shape that its 13-dollar-per-pack taxes are not being collected due to the black market for cigarettes that's sprung up due to all of these taxes. So what do they then do? They mandate. They mandate. They call the police commissioner, and they tell him, "You get your members of the force locked and loaded on this. I want people arrested. I want examples made. I want to get these black market cigarettes off the street. I want to get 'em out of town, and anybody selling 'em I want dealt with."
source
So a citation wasn't an option.
Can you give us any evidence that Eric Garner was actually selling anything at all when the attempted arrest happened?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I am using reasonable judgement based on what I saw in that video and what I know about human nature. This is the kind of reasonable judgement we should be expecting from the police.
Well, your reasonable judgment comes out in a most assured manner:

"Spending a little time would have been time well spent. Remember if their task was to arrest this person, they failed. They could have succeed if the spent the time needed."

Can you give us any evidence that Eric Garner was actually selling anything at all when the attempted arrest happened?
Nothing other than what I've read.

"Police told WCBS that 43-year-old Garner, a father of six, had a lengthy criminal history and had been previously arrested for selling untaxed cigarettes in May.
source

"A police officer's choke hold on a man being arrested for selling loose cigarettes killed him."
source
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Well, your reasonable judgment comes out in a most assured manner:

"Spending a little time would have been time well spent. Remember if their task was to arrest this person, they failed. They could have succeed if the spent the time needed."
Yes, I feel pretty confident in this particular judgement. Watch the video and make your own judgement. Listen to what this man is saying in the moments before the attack (yes, it was an attack). Listen to his tone of voice, look at his body language. This is a man who wanted to be heard. Yes, I feel sure in this evaluation.



Nothing other than what I've read.

"Police told WCBS that 43-year-old Garner, a father of six, had a lengthy criminal history and had been previously arrested for selling untaxed cigarettes in May.
source

"A police officer's choke hold on a man being arrested for selling loose cigarettes killed him."
source
Yes, note the term "previously". That is not evidence that he was doing this on this occasion.




btw, I notice that you have still not answered my question. What in your judgement, opinion, imagination, could have been more important than talking to Eric Garner for a while in the attempt to diffuse the situation?

The police are suppose to be here to "serve and protect". And that includes serving and protecting Eric Garner. What is more important than that?
 
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