Gaslighting Ourselves - Denying Our Own Religious Experiences

[Aupmanyav]

But according to science as describe here, science can't be used like you use it.
Your belief in Ultimate Reality is supernatural, just not theistic.

That is what I said. 'Science is trying to answer these questions, ..'. They don't have some answers at the moment.
There is nothing 'supernatural' about 'physical energy'.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That is what I said. 'Science is trying to answer these questions, ..'. They don't have some answers at the moment.
There is nothing 'supernatural' about 'physical energy'.

So you haven't really used science. Okay.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So you haven't really used science. Okay.

I use science but they don't have answers for all things. I limit myself to what science confirms, the rest are hypotheses.

 

[Quintessence]

Faced with all of this, I think a lot of people would just find some way to explain it all away, and most likely settle for explanations based on comfort rather than conviction.

Or if that doesn't work, they'd just put it out of their minds and pretend it never happened.

We all keep secrets from ourselves.

This is a really interesting take on it. I sometimes think about how accepting certain things into our lives ends up creating some additional complications that others who reject these things simply don't have to deal with at all. And without a guide or good teacher, it can be difficult to know what to make of things. I can be easier to not deal with it than to address it; sometimes that's okay and needs to happen. I've had that happen for some of my own experiences. It goes in a box somewhere, neatly tucked away, for me maybe to deal with later. Sometimes I do, sometimes it sits there for a really long time. Sometimes I forget the box was there because my memory is crap sometimes... haha. Then, maybe later, when one least expects it, something makes itself known again in the right place at the right time. But not always. Religious experiences - as life more broadly - can get messy and complicated like that, yeah?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This is a really interesting take on it. I sometimes think about how accepting certain things into our lives ends up creating some additional complications that others who reject these things simply don't have to deal with at all. And without a guide or good teacher, it can be difficult to know what to make of things. I can be easier to not deal with it than to address it; sometimes that's okay and needs to happen. I've had that happen for some of my own experiences. It goes in a box somewhere, neatly tucked away, for me maybe to deal with later. Sometimes I do, sometimes it sits there for a really long time. Sometimes I forget the box was there because my memory is crap sometimes... haha. Then, maybe later, when one least expects it, something makes itself known again in the right place at the right time. But not always. Religious experiences - as life more broadly - can get messy and complicated like that, yeah?

Well, as a Western skeptic I tried for long to do it without religion and faith, but I couldn't if I had to be honest with myself. So I am a strong general skeptic and religious.

 

[Quintessence]

This was my experience but in reverse. I was so desperate to stay a part of my religious community growing up that I tried to gaslight myself into believing circumstantial or anything out of the ordinary of my experience as evidence of the divine, to convince myself I really was where I was supposed to be in my faith.

This would be a really cool topic for another thread - the things we do to convince ourselves of something to maintain ties to part of a community. These sorts of social pressures do happen within contemporary Pagan circles, certainly, and it can definitely be problematic and lead to inauthenticity of both experiences and the self. I'm guessing at some point being inauthentic was worse than the pain and trauma of leaving that group, right? Ideally we find a social space where we can be both authentic to ourselves and find others who share that identity. Here's hoping that's working out so far.

 

[Kenny]

Most of us who practice or follow a religious tradition have had some inexplicable, mystical experiences from time to time. In the moment, they are so powerful, real, and visceral they threaten to overwhelm or psyches. A vision of God appearing in the mind's eye. The words of an ancestor spirit echoing in the back of our minds. A synchronicity so uncanny you can't help but know someone.. something was watching out for you.

And then, it is over. Wrenched back into the apparent world, the memory fades. Then the hard work of discernment begins. What does it all mean? What just happened? How does this fit into the sacred stories of my tradition?

In a culture where substance materialism has gained traction, those of us who have mystical or religious experiences deal with gaslighting from without. Naysayers who deny the very experience, chalk it up to brain chemicals or coincidence, and tell us to ignore it and move on with our lives. These are often easy enough to ignore. But we also have to deal with gaslighting from within. After we come down from the inexplicable, the mystical, the magical, we ask that question - "did that really just happen?"

Perhaps gaslighting is a strong word to use here, but I hope that you take my meaning. As we practice discernment - careful interpretation and contextualization of our mystical experiences - we sometimes question in the wrong ways. We undermine ourselves, our own traditions, and our values. We replace our own sacred narratives with those from without. At times this has us deny our own experiences entirely.

How do you manage your religious experiences and the meaning you weave with them? Have you ever been challenged by your own inner gaslight whispering "that didn't really happen?" What did you do with that feeling? Where do you think that feeling came from? Within? Without? Where did you direct it? Do you still believe or did the magic die inside? What came of that?

I had opposite experiences although you have a point.

Certainly, in my scriptures, the Israelites saw the miracles of God and then the memory faded as they left Egypt.

In my case, I remember going to see my wife to be in Venezuela. I rode a motorcycle and the streets in her area were very narrow.

That afternoon I reached a two way street that I had to enter. I pulled the clutch too soon and found myself in the middle of the street with a car coming in front of me and a car on the other side coming behind me. I had two mirrors on the handle bar and the mirror of the side of the car in front of me was at the same level as my mirror on the left side. Likewise, the one behind me had their mirror matching the same level of the mirror on my handle bar on the right side.

I braced for the impact of the mirrors colliding which would have swung my handle bars to a sure collision.

But then I saw my handle bars bend down as the cars passed and move back to its original place after they passed. I shook my natural head and said, "I'm seeing things" and went on.

After having given my life to God 11 years later and seen Him move supernaturally, I remembered that moment along with three other motorcycle incidents that cemented the reality of His powerful presence.

As we look back in our lives we can see what He has done when we didn't realize the supernatural was moving. It has strengthened my faith and is not forgotten

 

[Revoltingest]

I've never had a mystical experience.

 

[Quintessence]

So what am I supposed to do here? If I don't try to ground myself in materialism, I risk losing touch with reality. If I do try to ground myself in materialism, I end up empty.

I can identify with your story a bit. Part of what appealed to me about contemporary Paganism when I discovered it in college was its embracing of the otherworldly. I felt like parts of that were dying in myself because of the constant pressure from mainstream society to conform to materialist assumptions. This was at odds with my life experiences, and I thought by embracing this kind of path I could keep those parts of myself and not have them die. That has worked, but it is work to make it work.

Something that helped for me was to embrace a both/and approach. To accept multiple narratives or ways of telling the story. We too often tend to think of these things in either/or terms. It is either just materialistic or it isn't. But it can be both. Both ways of understanding it are valid and useful in different ways. Discernment helps us figure out which version is best for different things. And it is not necessarily easy!

 

[Quintessence]

I'd ask - how many have had such experiences and who have never ever taken any recreational drugs, such as which might subsequently affect how one might view or analyse such experiences?

Me. I'm really boring like that. I've only ever smoked once and it was during a Native American peace pipe ceremony (no, I didn't have any religious experience during that). I don't drink, because I think alcohol tastes disgusting. And hallucinogens are more or less illegal so I won't touch it. Plus, when I have experiences of mystery and wonder without substances I guess I don't see the point of using them at all either. I remember the first time I tried alcohol more seriously my reaction to it was basically "oh, so this is kind of like a meditative state... except I have no control over it.... why in the blazes would I want that?!"

 

[idea]

If that works for you, good.

Not what works for the individual, what is best for everyone in all the different groups. That's fine to feel elevated/inspired/connected as long as it's real - that feeling isn't from "God", no group/person is led by "God", no group/person has authority from "God" - that feeling isn't from God, it's from your group, and from your own mind.

Generated from your own mind, and from your own group is cool too (just don't call it "truth", use it to motivate, hope, peace, inspire - not "truth", not "real". Similar to endorphin high - cool feeling, but that is all - drugs make you feel cool...

 

[Mock Turtle]

Well, I am fairly knowable about my own mind since I have learned mentalizing and meta-cognition, yet that is not evidence for the metaphysical and ontological status of the non-natural.

So yes, I can explain my self using naturalism, yet I can also explain myself not using naturalism.
So what now?

For me? The simpler explanation often works - and given that there is still plenty to learn as to how the mind works and as to how the unconscious mind works, I'll wait for more answers.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Me. I'm really boring like that. I've only ever smoked once and it was during a Native American peace pipe ceremony (no, I didn't have any religious experience during that). I don't drink, because I think alcohol tastes disgusting. And hallucinogens are more or less illegal so I won't touch it. Plus, when I have experiences of mystery and wonder without substances I guess I don't see the point of using them at all either. I remember the first time I tried alcohol more seriously my reaction to it was basically "oh, so this is kind of like a meditative state... except I have no control over it.... why in the blazes would I want that?!"

But such experiences can be induced by various means and might be by previous ones - is all I'm saying. Trouble is, we outside can't judge what goes on in the heads of others.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I've never had a mystical experience.

You and me, mate - on the blacklist.

 

[Quintessence]

But such experiences can be induced by various means and might be by previous ones - is all I'm saying. Trouble is, we outside can't judge what goes on in the heads of others.

Yeah, that's definitely one of the challenges. Something interesting I've come to realize as I've been participating in a common tradition though is when you share a common cultural background with a group of people you do end up having shared experiences and common threads. It gives you a better position from which to assess the experiences of others because you know to some extent what training or initiation they've gone through. This isn't something I put any stock in before joining a Druid order so it could be one of those paths you just have to walk to start to get a handle on. In a way, it is similar to more secular training programs others participate in - if someone says they graduated high school for example you can have a general idea of what they've gone through as a person. It's similar for some religious traditions.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

The way I believe in God is essentially spiritual naturalism. But I subscribe to many religious ideas, such as progressive revelation of the Baha'i Faith, the inner light of Quakerism, soft cultural omnism, panendeism, among others, that denies supernatural superstitions and see that which is of awe in natural experiences. More than anything else I am part of the Earthseed movement, or simply, the idea that God is change and we must shape, or help create, God ourselves.

To explain it more fully, my umbrella camp is spiritual naturalism. Earthseed shapers are spiritual naturalists. Syntheists are Earthseed shapers. Exaltists are Syntheists. But all Exaltists are Syntheists, all Syntheists are Earthseed shapers, all Earthseed shapers are spiritual naturalists. Like a circle inside a circle inside another circle.

When I was growing up I had virtually no spirituality. I was pretty agnostic about the whole experience. And because I still reject supernaturalism, I view those who gaslight themselves over it to be correct in their assumptions. But, because I am of awe in nature, the fact that the Earth has existed for billions of years, not thousands, and in of awe of evolution, and the new ways we adapt to changes in our environment, lead me to have a deep spirituality that I was lacking as a child, but I developed as a teen, and now as an adult I'm more spiritual now and reaffirm that spirituality with nature rather than revealed religion or supernaturalism.

 

[icehorse]

How do you manage your religious experiences and the meaning you weave

I understand you're being sincere here. That said, in the beginning of your post you were asking about mystical experiences, and here later in your post you're saying religious experiences. I'm not sure, but I suspect you're using the terms interchangeably?

If so, I want to push back. I've had several (usually psychedelically supported), mystical / ecstatic / shamanic experiences. I never attributed them to a deity or a religion.

So I think it's more fair to NOT link those experiences with religion. A person can come to a wide range of conclusions as to the nature of such experiences.

BTW, almost all of the experiences I've had along these lines were in the context of having a deliberate spiritual "trip". I was always thoughtful in the "set and setting" of such experiences. In my fairly extensive experience - for myself and with others - being thoughtful, respectful, and intentional almost always led to very positive, life-changing experiences, and very few "bad trips". Some trips have challenging moments, but are ultimately very positive.

 

[Quintessence]

I understand you're being sincere here. That said, in the beginning of your post you were asking about mystical experiences, and here later in your post you're saying religious experiences. I'm not sure, but I suspect you're using the terms interchangeably?

Yes - as they are used interchangeably by others as well. Mystical/religious/magical/sublime/divine/occult/esoteric/preternatural - faulty human to convey the same sort of thing. There are other words that could be suitable too. The word doesn't matter. The substance of what it is describing does.

So I think it's more fair to NOT link those experiences with religion. A person can come to a wide range of conclusions as to the nature of such experiences.

For you, I could see the sense in it; tell the tale however you wish. That said, I think it would be wise to recognize that the foundations of all religions are these kinds of experiences. That's where they all start. All of them. They all start with humans having experiences, and then figuring out what they mean. Building deeply valued stories out of them, creating traditions, and celebrating those time and again. That oft gets overlooked in how contemporary folk understand religion, so they ick away from that word. I find that a bit sad, but it is what it is. There's a whole tangent I could go off on about that and how organized, dogmatic, authoritarian trends in specific religions have squelched out everyday religious experiences, but that really deserves its own thread.

 

[icehorse]

For you, I could see the sense in it; tell the tale however you wish. That said, I think it would be wise to recognize that the foundations of all religions are these kinds of experiences. That's where they all start. All of them. They all start with humans having experiences, and then figuring out what they mean. Building deeply valued stories out of them, creating traditions, and celebrating those time and again. That oft gets overlooked in how contemporary folk understand religion, so they ick away from that word. I find that a bit sad, but it is what it is. There's a whole tangent I could go off on about that and how organized, dogmatic, authoritarian trends in specific religions have squelched out everyday religious experiences, but that really deserves its own thread.

For the sake of discussion, I'll grant you the idea that these experiences are the foundations of all religions.

What seems problematical to me is that idea that it's forgone conclusion that a mystical experience somehow proves the existence of a supernatural, creator of everything god. Again, I can see that being one conclusion, but out of many.

My guess would be that mystical experiences predate religions and that this is yet another thing religion has tried to co-op.

 

[Quintessence]

What seems problematical to me is that idea that it's forgone conclusion that a mystical experience somehow proves the existence of a supernatural, creator of everything god. Again, I can see that being one conclusion, but out of many.

I agree - I don't think I conveyed otherwise in the OP, but sometimes words carry the wrong way. If anything I hoped to convey that what we do from there with experiences like this is the challenge. What does it mean? If anything? Figuring that out is hard work. Especially when the cultural narratives that guide us along that journey are a bad fit for our lives... or we don't have guide posts at all.

My guess would be that mystical experiences predate religions and that this is yet another thing religion has tried to co-op.

Maybe, though it depends on how one understands religion. Certainly if we understand religion in the narrow sense as defined by early Eurocentric scholars this is absolutely true. In the more cross-cultural, contemporary understanding of religion? Definitely less so. But ultimately it's a question that cannot be resolved as early religions predate historical records entirely.