Ekanta
om sai ram
The end of maya is the end of samsara... but wait... maya is an eternal aspect of brahman... So there is no hope whatsoever...Let us not go from death to death.
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Gaudapada and Nagarjuna
- Thread starter DanielR
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Ekanta
om sai ram
But Aupmanyav, its an interesting discussion.
All creation strives for liberation. If it started an eternity ago (i.e. no beginning) all would have been liberated an eternity ago... But here we are. There will never be a time when all are liberated. Its pretty clear.
At least relatively speaking, there must be a creation of new jivas to fill the gap of those liberated.
So Im a jiva... for how long have I been a jiva? An eternity? How did I even reach now if it started an eternity ago? Why am I not liberated yet?
We cant even begin to think in these terms, cause nothing will make sense anymore. This is the mystery of maya.
All creation strives for liberation. If it started an eternity ago (i.e. no beginning) all would have been liberated an eternity ago... But here we are. There will never be a time when all are liberated. Its pretty clear.
At least relatively speaking, there must be a creation of new jivas to fill the gap of those liberated.
So Im a jiva... for how long have I been a jiva? An eternity? How did I even reach now if it started an eternity ago? Why am I not liberated yet?
We cant even begin to think in these terms, cause nothing will make sense anymore. This is the mystery of maya.
The end of maya is the end of samsara... but wait... maya is an eternal aspect of brahman... So there is no hope whatsoever...
Hello Ekanta.
I understand that Brahman's eternal aspect is its nature, which we may perceive as mAyA.
Is not 'There is no one bound, in reality', the advaita jnana?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Liberation from what, Ekanta? In my belief, liberation is from ignorance. Like what Lord Krishna said in Gita, there is no birth or death. "Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin, nāyaḿ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ; .." BG 2.20
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I've been asking me the same question for years now, it's really messing with my mind that I cannot find an answer
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You have done fairly well to reach the stage of a human birth. With a little more effort, you are likely to be liberated. So there is no reason to loose heart.
I've been asking me the same question for years now, it's really messing with my mind that I cannot find an answer
Can you please resrate your doubt?
I'm trying to understand the theory of reincarnation according to Advaita, after reading Gaudapada's karika (now for the 2nd time lol, it is a great read) I'm even more confused!
Gaudapada says for example that causality is an 'absurdity' , how does then reincarnation work? After reading the Karika I get the feeling that there is no reincarnation at all, but I'm probably wrong. Of course from the absolute standpoint there is no Rebirth, since Atman is ajata, apparently from the relative standpoint there is reincarnation but it doesn't make sense, I don't know if I interpreted Ekanta's post correcty but how does it work? If there is an event called enlightenment why am I not englightened already since I had innummerable lives time for it
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Ekanta
om sai ram
Resently found this:
http://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/mandukya-upanishad-karika-bhashya/d/doc143599.html
Mandukya Upanishad
Gaudapada’s Karika
Śaṅkara’s Commentary
Ānandagiri’s Ṭīkā (glossary)
http://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/mandukya-upanishad-karika-bhashya/d/doc143599.html
Mandukya Upanishad
Gaudapada’s Karika
Śaṅkara’s Commentary
Ānandagiri’s Ṭīkā (glossary)
shivsomashekhar
Well-Known Member
Atanu,
As I said earlier, the concept of an illusory universe is not to be found in the Mukhya Upanishads, the Gita and the Brahma sutras. At least, not directly.
The Shetashvatara is not counted among the ten principal Upanishads. Ignoring this for a moment, the Shetashvatara Upanishad does not mention anywhere that the perceived Universe is an illusion or Mithya. The definition of Maya - acceptable to all schools of Vedanta - is "the power of Ishwara/Brahman". Advaita says everything that comes out of this Maya is an illusion and therefore, unreal. But no other school says that.
Most people do not. Non-humans certainly do not. A more basic question here is, liberation from what, exactly?
This problem has been addressed by Gaudapada. The idea of a jiva seeking liberation, the idea of liberation, the idea of time (and eternity) are all imagined in the mind. Since time is imagined, past, present and future are also imagined.
There is neither dissolution nor creation, none in bondage and none practicing disciplines. There is none seeking Liberation and none liberated. This is the absolute truth - Mandukya Karika 2.32
The objects that seem to be hidden in the mind and those that appear outside the mind – both are produced by imagination – Mandukya Karika 2.15
That should make it clear.
I'm trying to understand the theory of reincarnation according to Advaita, after reading Gaudapada's karika (now for the 2nd time lol, it is a great read) I'm even more confused!
Gaudapada says for example that causality is an 'absurdity' , how does then reincarnation work? After reading the Karika I get the feeling that there is no reincarnation at all, but I'm probably wrong. Of course from the absolute standpoint there is no Rebirth, since Atman is ajata, apparently from the relative standpoint there is reincarnation but it doesn't make sense, I don't know if I interpreted Ekanta's post correcty but how does it work? If there is an event called enlightenment why am I not englightened already since I had innummerable lives time for it
See the two karikas above. Reincarnation is not logical as explained by you and Ekanta for it implies that there is period of time after which you will be liberated...but that time has already passed, which is a contradiction.
That's my conclusion too! But maybe I'm wrong, I've read the Karika very carefully maybe I missed something. Sometimes I also wonder why so many people even when they receive this knowledge still clinge to these refuted concepts. Btw this is not meant as an attack to anyone lol
.shivsomashekhar
Well-Known Member
That's my conclusion too! But maybe I'm wrong, I've read the Karika very carefully maybe I missed something. Sometimes I also wonder why so many people even when they receive this knowledge still clinge to these refuted concepts. Btw this is not meant as an attack to anyone lol
They are not able to get it because they still see themselves as points in time and space and thoughts as something emanating from the brain.
It is hard to see that it is the other way around; the brain, space and time are thoughts within the mind.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Deduct the time when you were not in the form of a human (now you do not know how much is that), therefore, though you may have been reincarnating since eternity, the time you spent as a human is much lesser. It is in the human form that you can strive for enlightenment. As you yourself agree that 'atman' is 'ajata', incarnation/changing of form is but an illusion. They day you understand that YOU ARE 'BRAHMAN' JUST AS EVERY OTHER THING IS, you will see a flash of light, your heart will have a river of peace flowing through it and all your questions will disintegrate, know that moment as your enlightenment. "Aham Brahmasmi', 'Tat twam asi', 'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma', 'Eko'ham dwiteeyo nasti'.Of course from the absolute standpoint there is no Rebirth, since Atman is ajata, apparently from the relative standpoint there is reincarnation but it doesn't make sense, .. If there is an event called enlightenment why am I not englightened already since I had innummerable lives time for it
Brahman is a very lazy entity. It does absolutely nothing all through the eterntiy. It is maya which spins the web. What is a jeeva? Anything other than Brahman?
'Jeevo Brahmaiva na parah."
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That's my conclusion too! But maybe I'm wrong, I've read the Karika very carefully maybe I missed something. Sometimes I also wonder why so many people even when they receive this knowledge still clinge to these refuted concepts. Btw this is not meant as an attack to anyone lol
Yeah. Since hearing/reading is not same as 'LIVING'. One who is above Samsara is Brahman.
But are we not still operating as localised individuals in realm of kAla (time)? Although, it is fine to say theoretically "I am unborn", I do not know whether any of us is fully above this illusion? May be some posters here are Self Realised Jnanis who have freed themselves of illusion of birth (and thus become Brahman).
But.
Brahman is one without a second. There is no other. If one has fully realised the knowledge of advaita as taught in Karika, there will be no question "Why so many others cling to refuted concepts?"
We operate with a mind where there are others.
Self Realised Jnani sees no other or in relative mode sees all in Self and Self in all.
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Shankara's own ocean and wave metaphor is so simple yet effective. Ocean is always ocean. Waves are the ocean too.
But if there is a notion "I am this wave", then that knowledge will operate in mind, which as such is illusory but being a bundle of thoughts is very effective in generating pleasure-pain duality.
So, to transcend the pain all that is required is to drop the notion of a separate reality of a wave-dom. As long as the notion of individual existence sticks, the coming and going will persist, controlled by vAsanas (desires) in mind.
But if there is a notion "I am this wave", then that knowledge will operate in mind, which as such is illusory but being a bundle of thoughts is very effective in generating pleasure-pain duality.
So, to transcend the pain all that is required is to drop the notion of a separate reality of a wave-dom. As long as the notion of individual existence sticks, the coming and going will persist, controlled by vAsanas (desires) in mind.
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