Gay Marriage

[jubilee131]

I have heard the arguments for gay marriage and they seem kind of lame to me. The one that really gets me is the right to marry the person that you love. Does anyone have that right, does it even exist? Granted some people get to marry the person they love, others have to settle for the one that would have them. Does anyone have the right to marry the object of their affection? If that were the case then a person could marry anyone or anything they choose to. That is clearly not the case currently. Same sex marriages are not allowed in most places. Close relatives are prohibited from marriage. There are age limits that prevent marriages. You are prohibited from having multiple marriages. Marriage is prohibited with animals and inanimate objects.

The only thing that prevents all of these marriages from happening is a law. Gays want the law changed to allow them to marry, but they do not want the law changed so that everyone can marry the object of their affection. Why is that? If we are talking about a “right” then everyone is entitled to that right. If we are going to change the law for one group shouldn’t we change the law for everyone?

Before you get excited I have heard that animals can’t enter a contract and marriage is a contract, but their owners can enter contracts for them, just as guardians can. Then there is the age of consent argument. The age of consent varies from state to state, so it is an arbitrary number that didn’t even exist until the 1900’s. It is just a law that can be changed like any other law. All of these restrictions are just laws that can be changed at will.

So what makes gays so special?

 

[Caladan]

So what makes gays so special?

Special?
its because they are not special that it should be recognized in more countries, usually the less developed ones.
adult same sex couples are entitled to the same normal rights that all couples do. BECAUSE they are not special and should not be singled out.
your approach to this is wrong, the are other reasons which are pragmatic and are not 'love and romance', but because all people are entitled for the same benefits. recognizing a marriage by law makes you entitled to these benefits.

 

[markr1506]

Simple Gay people want the same right as straight people.

Would you argue that women should not have got the right to vote and was changing that law also wrong?

 

[Madhuri]

Omg, another one????

Please just read through this or one of the other hundred or so threads on the same topic: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/124866-why-do-gays-want-get-married.html

 

[jubilee131]

Three responses that all say the same thing. Gays want the same rights as everyone else. Gays have the same rights when it comes to marriage. There is no law prohibiting a homosexual from getting married. There is no law prohibiting a pedophile from getting married. They must conform to the laws pertaining to marriage.

Many groups want the laws changed so they can marry the object of their affection. What makes gays more deserving than any other group? Based upon your statements all of these groups are being discriminated against. Why make the change for just one group? Why is discrimination OK against polygamists or close relatives but not gays?

 

[Caladan]

Three responses that all say the same thing. Gays want the same rights as everyone else. Gays have the same rights when it comes to marriage. There is no law prohibiting a homosexual from getting married. There is no law prohibiting a pedophile from getting married. They must conform to the laws pertaining to marriage.

I don't think you got the responses. I am talking about benefits. do chairs get benefits? maybe animals?
there, I have already minimised your 'many groups'.

 

[Madhuri]

Why is discrimination OK against polygamists or close relatives but not gays?

Is it OK to discriminate against those groups? Both polygamy and family marriage have been quite prominent throughout history. It's very recent that these have been outlawed.

And laws will always be changing. It takes actions and persistence to make that change.

Marriage is a man made institution. It's definition and meaning within a society can also change.

If homosexuals want to marry one another, I don't see a problem.

If pedophiles want to marry kids, I see a huge problem. But surely you can see the basis for this problem and how it is set apart from the other examples. If not, then I worry...

 

[Caladan]

Is it OK to discriminate against those groups? Both polygamy and family marriage have been quite prominent throughout history. It's very recent that these have been outlawed.

And laws will always be changing. It takes actions and persistence to make that change.

bingo. even major religions themselves have altered their laws regarding phenomena such as polygamy. as the resident archaeologist let me give some extra context. in Rome we have a documented example of same sex marriage. some scholars believe that by the way such an example is desrcibed that the phenomenon itself was normative and not uncommon.

 

[jubilee131]

Is it OK to discriminate against those groups? Both polygamy and family marriage have been quite prominent throughout history. It's very recent that these have been outlawed.

And laws will always be changing. It takes actions and persistence to make that change.

Marriage is a man made institution. It's definition and meaning within a society can also change.

If homosexuals want to marry one another, I don't see a problem.

If pedophiles want to marry kids, I see a huge problem. But surely you can see the basis for this problem and how it is set apart from the other examples. If not, then I worry...

Is marriage a man made institution? Many marriage ceremonies start with "Marriage is ordained of God". Just a question.

You have no objection to same sex marriage but you do object to a pedophile marriage. What I think doesn't matter (I have not stated a position on marriage restrictions). You would restrict some but not others. If the parents/guardians did not object and the child didn't object and the prospective spouse didn't object why should you?

If a person wanted to marry their pet (dog, cat, snake... etc) why would you have any objection?

If we can have laws that say you can't have more than 1 spouse why can't we have laws that say you can't marry someone of the same sex?

I would like to understand the justification for allowing some groups but not all groups. If there is a "right" shouldn't it apply to everyone?

 

[jubilee131]

I don't think you got the responses. I am talking about benefits. do chairs get benefits? maybe animals?
there, I have already minimised your 'many groups'.

Heterosexuals that live together but do not marry do not receive marriage benefits. Why should homosexuals? Is that equal? Homosexual can marry according to the laws of marriage and receive those benefits. They are no different than people that live together and do not marry.

 

[jubilee131]

bingo. even major religions themselves have altered their laws regarding phenomena such as polygamy. as the resident archaeologist let me give some extra context. in Rome we have a documented example of same sex marriage. some scholars believe that by the way such an example is desrcibed that the phenomenon itself was normative and not uncommon.

I agree. Gays simply want the current laws changed. My question is why not include all groups not just gays?

 

[Madhuri]

Is marriage a man made institution? Many marriage ceremonies start with "Marriage is ordained of God". Just a question.

You have no objection to same sex marriage but you do object to a pedophile marriage. What I think doesn't matter (I have not stated a position on marriage restrictions). You would restrict some but not others. If the parents/guardians did not object and the child didn't object and the prospective spouse didn't object why should you?

If a person wanted to marry their pet (dog, cat, snake... etc) why would you have any objection?

If we can have laws that say you can't have more than 1 spouse why can't we have laws that say you can't marry someone of the same sex?

I would like to understand the justification for allowing some groups but not all groups. If there is a "right" shouldn't it apply to everyone?

I do consider marriage to be a man-made institution. Even if God advises a type of relationship, the way that different cultures view and conduct marriage varies.

In your example regarding pedophiles, you use consent as the main factor. But do you really believe a small child is mature enough to make a proper decision regarding marriage? And is the small child mature enough to handle sex both emotionally, psychologically and physically? I think this is abuse and I hope you agree and can see how this is a much more serious scenario than gay marriage.

There's no reason why you can't fight for your right to have more than one spouse. Just like there is no reason you can't fight for your right to marry the same sex. Power to you if you make a difference. This is how cultures change.

I hope you can see that this topic is not black and white, and so a rule does not have to be equal for everyone. You can see this through the example of the pedophile vs gay marriage.

 

[gnomon]

I have heard the arguments for gay marriage and they seem kind of lame to me. The one that really gets me is the right to marry the person that you love. Does anyone have that right, does it even exist? Granted some people get to marry the person they love, others have to settle for the one that would have them. Does anyone have the right to marry the object of their affection? If that were the case then a person could marry anyone or anything they choose to. That is clearly not the case currently. Same sex marriages are not allowed in most places. Close relatives are prohibited from marriage. There are age limits that prevent marriages. You are prohibited from having multiple marriages. Marriage is prohibited with animals and inanimate objects.

The only thing that prevents all of these marriages from happening is a law. Gays want the law changed to allow them to marry, but they do not want the law changed so that everyone can marry the object of their affection. Why is that? If we are talking about a “right” then everyone is entitled to that right. If we are going to change the law for one group shouldn’t we change the law for everyone?

Before you get excited I have heard that animals can’t enter a contract and marriage is a contract, but their owners can enter contracts for them, just as guardians can. Then there is the age of consent argument. The age of consent varies from state to state, so it is an arbitrary number that didn’t even exist until the 1900’s. It is just a law that can be changed like any other law. All of these restrictions are just laws that can be changed at will.

So what makes gays so special?

What makes gays so special is that they are human. The same special as you are.

 

[gnomon]

Is marriage a man made institution? Many marriage ceremonies start with "Marriage is ordained of God". Just a question.

You have no objection to same sex marriage but you do object to a pedophile marriage. What I think doesn't matter (I have not stated a position on marriage restrictions). You would restrict some but not others. If the parents/guardians did not object and the child didn't object and the prospective spouse didn't object why should you?

If a person wanted to marry their pet (dog, cat, snake... etc) why would you have any objection?

If we can have laws that say you can't have more than 1 spouse why can't we have laws that say you can't marry someone of the same sex?

I would like to understand the justification for allowing some groups but not all groups. If there is a "right" shouldn't it apply to everyone?

Of course marriage is a man made institution.

You are arguing two separate things. One is that of gay marriage under a religious definition of marriage, which already takes place no matter the laws of the State, and that of recognition of that marriage and applying the ridiculous number of State and federal laws regarding marriage. The latter is not what is happening.

But as far as the sanctity of marriage, sacredness of marriage or however it is worded there are religious institutions which already marry homosexuals. They are married. As married as any couple in a Catholic ceremony, LDS ceremony, etc.

We just need the State to recognize those marriages not just because of the argument that it is morally right to do so but as well it is practically beneficial for the State to do so. Homosexuals can raise children as well as heterosexuals. They can be a family unit as much as a heterosexual one. They already are, actually. But the official State recognition to protect them and provide them with the same benefits would be better for our society.

The only people who have anything to gain by not accepting this are those who need some sort of sick peace of mind that their religious culture dominates the legal system. That, historically, has never been good for a society.

 

[SMSummer]

i think they should be able to do what they want without being in our face about. they are not special but they think they are.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I have heard the arguments for gay marriage and they seem kind of lame to me.

So what makes gays so special?

*sigh*

 

[tumbleweed41]

Preventing Ignorance 101

1. Consenting Heterosexual couples have the rights and privileges under Federal and State laws to form legal unions known as marriage.
2. Consenting Homosexual couples wish to have the rights and privileges under Federal and State laws to form legal unions known as marriage.

Arguments that imply that non-consensual children, animals, and broomsticks would fall under the same umbrella as those rights and privileges demanded by consensual Homosexual couples reveal an ignorance beyond measure.

 

[gnomon]

i think they should be able to do what they want without being in our face about. they are not special but they think they are.

I think the idea that you think they are would be closer to the truth.

 

[HonestJoe]

So what makes gays so special?

So you're basically asking why homosexuals aren't treated like animals or inanimate objects?

 

[Storm]

So you're basically asking why homosexuals aren't treated like animals or inanimate objects?

Essentially.