Gay vs Lesbian

[Neo Deist]

Gay means to be homosexual. So why do women go by lesbian instead of gay? Is this some type of label thing like black vs African American? Softer language perhaps? Has society undergone so much pussification that everything has to be sugar coated now?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They're gender-specific cultural terms for sexual orientation. "Gay" doesn't mean "homosexual", really. Sometimes it's used that way, but that's really correct. It means "a homosexual man" in modern Western contexts. They started calling themselves "gay' for their own cultural reasons. Lesbians started calling themselves "lesbians" for their own cultural reasons.

les·bi·an
ˈlezbēən/
Origin

late 19th century: via Latin from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos, home of Sappho, who expressed affection for women in her poetry, + -ian.

Why are you acting like this something new? They've been calling themselves that for over a century.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Has society undergone so much pussification that everything has to be sugar coated now?

What language softening? You should watch George Carlin if you want examples of sugar coating and softening language. Gay doesn't mean homosexual, but rather a homosexual male, and lesbian refers to homosexual women.

 

[Debater Slayer]

What language softening? You should watch George Carlin if you want examples of sugar coating and softening language. Gay doesn't mean homosexual, but rather a homosexual male, and lesbian refers to homosexual women.

Now that you mentioned Carlin--and since the OP contains a word coined by him, as far as I know--I just want to state my opinion that he was a tasteless piece of trash. Just another glorified lowlife. Unfortunately, he wasn't the first and won't be the last. (Hello, Seth MacFarlane?)

I digress now. On the main topic of this thread, I find Saint Frank's response informative because it taught me something new. I wasn't sure why "gay" wasn't used to refer to women much either.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Gay means to be homosexual. So why do women go by lesbian instead of gay? Is this some type of label thing like black vs African American? Softer language perhaps? Has society undergone so much pussification that everything has to be sugar coated now?

I can kind of give you my view and opinion of the OP. I read a quote by Kate Clinton that says, well, I'll bring the American ratings down a peg. "Some women can't say the word lesbian... even when their [arms are holding] one." So, some of us are uncomfortable saying the term. My aunt is lesbian just as me and she rather say gay than lesbian. If she does say lesbian, it's like picking her teeth.

If I were to compare it to race, I'd say (going by Frank's diagram as well),

Negro: Lesbios (Though I don't here many lesbians use that term)

N/gg: Lesbos (I hear lesbos said in a derogatory way)

Black: Lesbian, gay (as in gay male) or homosexual (universal term).

I've seen the word "gay" only used for men even though I was told in the 60s it only meant "happy" at one time. During the Brady Bunch times. It could be a politically correct thing.​

African American: "Gay male" and "Gay woman" (rather than just gay). It also could be a feminist thing too. Maybe gay women (which sounds better to my ears) were trying to part with their male counterparts not because of sexual orientation but probably trying to keep their own terms as feminists women during that generation.

Some African Americans such as my family rather keep the term black (or I see many homosexuals keep the word gay) as a overall term. Maybe the word lesbian is saying too strong of a statement really isn't needed. Yes, I'm African American but I know no one of my family that came from Africa; so, while many others call themselves that, our family just say we are dark-skinned (or, in comparison, I'd just say I'm gay).

I think people are more comfortable hearing the word gay than lesbian, for some weird reason. Maybe because gay can mean multiple things so they can kind of accept a variation of the word instead of saying homosexual or lesbian where it specifically talks about a person's sexual orientation and the latter a gay woman.

I personally rather say I am a gay woman (African American). I don't care for the word lesbian for some reason. The word homosexual is tied to Christian definitions and I live in a Christian environment, so I save myself the pitch forks by avoiding being judged by who I am via who they think I am.

I think I personally won't go by lesbian because I kinda feel it's separating us from the general population. It's kind of saying "we need a name for ourselves" even though gay isn't meant for men but a general term to I believe cover up or soothen the word homosexual given religious affiliation. Kind of like saying union rather than marriage. I'd liken gay to be marriage and union to be lesbian.

That's my view, if that makes sense? As for why other gay men and women choose to refer to themselves as gay or lesbian, I think it's best to really get personal opinions why (which I think you wanted? or technical?). Gives better insight.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Now that you mentioned Carlin--and since the OP contains a word coined by him, as far as I know--I just want to state my opinion that he was a tasteless piece of trash. Just another glorified lowlife.

I thought he was brilliant and very insightful, especially when it came to words, the peculiar things we say in English (one of my favorites is "no, **** you, I'm not getting on the plane, I'm getting in the plane."), and euphemisms. He was also dead on when it came to his political/corporate rants, and he had great observations such as when he pointed out that t-shirts have basically turned us all into a bunch of walking billboards. He was even really pro-female (I wouldn't say feminist because he detached himself from any labels) and strongly against the whole "macho man" crap that causes some real issues for men. I don't know if he coined the phrase softening language (though I hardly ever hear outside of his comedy bits), but the things he would go on about regarding this softening were things like how we don't die, we "pass away," toilet paper becoming "bathroom tissue," or moles becoming "beauty marks."

 

[Skwim]

"How ‘Gay’ Came to Mean ‘Homosexual’

The word “gay” seems to have its origins around the 12th century in England, derived from the Old French word ‘gai’, which in turn was probably derived from a Germanic word, though that isn’t completely known. The word’s original meaning meant something to the effect of “joyful”, “carefree”, “full of mirth”, or “bright and showy”.

However, around the early parts of the 17th century, the word began to be associated with immorality. By the mid 17th century, according to an Oxford dictionary definition at the time, the meaning of the word had changed to mean “addicted to pleasures and dissipations. Often euphemistically: Of loose and immoral life”. This is an extension of one of the original meanings of “carefree”, meaning more or less uninhibited.

Fast-forward to the 19th century and the word gay referred to a woman who was a prostitute and a gay man was someone who slept with a lot of women (ironically enough), often prostitutes. Also at this time, the phrase “gay it” meant to have sex.

With these new definitions, the original meanings of “carefree”, “joyful”, and “bright and showy” were still around; so the word was not exclusively used to refer to prostitutes or a promiscuous man. Those were just accepted definitions, along with the other meanings of the word.

Around the 1920s and 1930s, however, the word started to have a new meaning. In terms of the sexual meaning of the word, a “gay man” no longer just meant a man who had sex with a lot of women, but now started to refer to men who had sex with other men. There was also another word “gey cat” at this time which meant a homosexual boy.

By 1955, the word gay now officially acquired the new added definition of meaning homosexual males. Gay men themselves seem to have been behind the driving thrust for this new definition as they felt (and many still do), that “homosexual” is much too clinical, sounding like a disorder. As such, it was common amongst the gay community to refer to one another as “gay” decades before this was a commonly known definition (reportedly homosexual men were calling one another gay as early as the 1920s). At this time, homosexual women were referred to as lesbians, not gay. Although women could still be called gay if they were prostitutes as that meaning had not yet 100% disappeared.

Since then, gay, meaning homosexual male, has steadily driven out all the other definitions that have floated about through time and of course also has gradually begun supplementing the word ‘lesbian’ as referring to women who are homosexual."
source
​

Personally, I've noticed "gay" being used for homosexual women more and more.

.​

 

[Shadow Wolf]

By 1955, the word gay now officially acquired the new added definition of meaning homosexual males. Gay men themselves seem to have been behind the driving thrust for this new definition as they felt (and many still do), that “homosexual” is much too clinical, sounding like a disorder. As such, it was common amongst the gay community to refer to one another as “gay” decades before this was a commonly known definition (reportedly homosexual men were calling one another gay as early as the 1920s). At this time, homosexual women were referred to as lesbians, not gay. Although women could still be called gay if they were prostitutes as that meaning had not yet 100% disappeared.

Blah, blah, blah, I'll just take it to mean happy and jolly like I read it in Lord of the Rings!

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

" Gay" is sort of like "guys" in that it's sometimes used in a gendered way and sometimes neutrally. It's certainly not offensive to call a lesbian a " gay woman", just a bit less standard.

 

[Neo Deist]

Definitions sources I looked at:

Merriam Webster: sexually attracted to someone who is the same sex

Urban Dictionary: a homosexual male or female

Wikipedia: a term that primarily refers to a homosexual person or the trait of being homosexual

Dictionary.com: of, relating to, or exhibiting sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex

Oxford Dictionary: homosexual


Some of the entries had a history of the term and did indicate that gay meant homosexual, especially with men, but the term was fully functional in describing females as well. So, it seems that the use of the term lesbian is no longer needed, outside of wanting a different label to distinguish one's self apart from men. Just saying...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Definitions sources I looked at:

Merriam Webster: sexually attracted to someone who is the same sex

Urban Dictionary: a homosexual male or female

Wikipedia: a term that primarily refers to a homosexual person or the trait of being homosexual

Dictionary.com: of, relating to, or exhibiting sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex

Oxford Dictionary: homosexual


Some of the entries had a history of the term and did indicate that gay meant homosexual, especially with men, but the term was fully functional in describing females as well. So, it seems that the use of the term lesbian is no longer needed, outside of wanting a different label to distinguish one's self apart from men. Just saying...

Why do you care what they want to call themselves? Are lesbians not allowed to have their own culture, apart from men? Mind your own damn business. This is coming off as very sexist.

 

[Neo Deist]

Why do you care what they want to call themselves? Are lesbians not allowed to have their own culture, apart from men? Mind your own damn business. This is coming off as very sexist.

Someone sounds butthurt.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Someone sounds butthurt.

Are you 10? Grow up. You're the one throwing around sexist and homophobic insults and being all uppity over what words lesbians identify themselves by. I still would like to know why you care what lesbians call themselves. They have their own community, separate from gay men. Gay men and lesbians actually don't hang around each other in general all that much. They have their own social spheres and subcultures. If you're not part of their community, it's none of your business what they want to call themselves.

 

[Revoltingest]

From the title, I was expecting an erotic mud wrestling match.
How disappointing!
But in my countless decades of observing language, I say "gay" refers to all homosexuals, but males in particular.
The context determines which usage applies.

 

[Spideymon77]

in my countless decades of observing language, I say "gay" refers to all homosexuals, but males in particular.
The context determines which usage applies.

Yeah, if you look up the dictionary on google, you'll see that it does refer to all homosexuals BUT males use it mostly.

 

[columbus]

n my countless decades of observing language, I say "gay" refers to all homosexuals, but males in particular.

Things have changed a lot since you were playing fetch with your dinosaur.

For most of western history, people finding out that you'd had homosex was license to go all leviticus and kill you. Especially if you were male. Having code words was simple selfpreservation.

But the words and their various meanings do exist and we know what they are mostly. Here in the 21st century USA lesbian is a subset of gay, and there just isn't a male equivalent. People who make an issue out of that, are the ones with the problem, IMHO. How important it is is what matters.
I've known homosexual women who would not join the local group called the Gay/Straight Alliance. They were not gay nor straight, they were lesbian! Some people will go to great lengths to feel excluded and victimized. Merely being invited by a lesbian, to a meeting chaired by a lesbian, to help improve the lives of lesbians wasn't good enough.

Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

Things have changed a lot since you were playing fetch with your dinosaur.

"Dino" was just his name!
He was a woolly mammoth.

For most of western history, people finding out that you'd had homosex was license to go all leviticus and kill you. Especially if you were male. Having code words was simple selfpreservation.

But the words and their various meanings do exist and we know what they are mostly. Here in the 21st century USA lesbian is a subset of gay, and there just isn't a male equivalent.

In some contexts, it is used as an equivalent.

People who make an issue out of that, are the ones with the problem, IMHO. How important it is is what matters.
I've known homosexual women who would not join the local group called the Gay/Straight Alliance. They were not gay nor straight, they were lesbian! Some people will go to great lengths to feel excluded and victimized. Merely being invited by a lesbian, to a meeting chaired by a lesbian, to help improve the lives of lesbians wasn't good enough.

Tom

But obsessing over words is so much fun!
People adopting the labels they want is how language evolves.