Gaza: Comparing Egypt's blockade to Israel's?

[LuisDantas]

There are 22 arab countries that comprise about the size of the US.

Israel is the only jewish state in the world. It's tiny about the size of NJ.

Not very relevant at all, but sure, that is certainly true.

How about their arab brethren take them in?

Wonderful if it can be agreed on. But people simply are not likely to want to share their territory just like that, particularly when that would also be understood as a military defeat to a cruel enemy.

Although that could happen given adequate incentive. Now, that is an idea.

Gaza actually belonged to Egypt. So the arabs living there are egyptian.

That was true back in the 19th century, wasn't it? The territory has since been taken by Otomans, British, and only in 1948 it was taken by Egypt again, in a very troubled rule that ended with the 1967 war.

I don't lend a lot of significance to any nationalities to begin with, but claiming that they are "egyptian" when that has not been even technically true for nearly 50 years now is sorely naive IMO.

Not that it woud matter in the least, mind you. People are people. Nationality or ethnic origin are not factors far as fair treatment goes.


As an aside: can we stop this talk about people "owning" land? It does not really mean anything and causes a lot of unwelcome obfuscation. Land exists, and people often occupy it and enter in conflict because of it. It is not possible for people to "own" land in any meaningful sense; it is just shorthand for "having effective control".

 

[Aquitaine]

They should be.

"Israeli hospitals continue to treat sick Gazans despite missile attacks"
Israeli hospitals continue to treat sick Gazans despite missile attacks | JPost | Israel News

"IDF sets up field hospital at Erez border crossing for injured Palestinians"
IDF sets up field hospital at Erez border crossing for injured Palestinians | JPost | Israel News

That's the very least they can do, considering the injuries sustained are largely due to IDF weaponry.

 

[LuisDantas]

Part of the problem is that there is a grave mismatch among expectations, possibilities and ethical duties these days.

We have inherited some very outdated notions from the times when land ownership was a somewhat more reasonable concept, established mainly by how far one would be capable and willing to go to keep competitors away.

Yet at the same time communications, politics and military technology have advanced to such a degree (and in such conflicting ways at that) that the idea of land ownership is now just a haunting with no practical value that generates some very unfortunate misconceptions.

It is now possible to judge and influence lands far away that we lack both the capability and the desire to minimally truly understand. Worse yet, it is possible to ravage them from afar and even to take pride in doing so in a "civilized" way.

As Robert Howard once said in "The Tower of the Elephant":

Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.

I will add that at this point in History we are also more unethical and bloodthirsty than savages.

That's the very least they can do, considering the injuries sustained are largely due to IDF weaponry.

Agreed!

 

[Alceste]

Israel is dropping bombs on Hams terrorists whom surround themselves with children.

That's because they are cowards and evil.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the Israelis evil, but dropping bombs on children hoping to catch a militant in the process is certainly cowardly.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Alceste,

Do you think Hamas is a terrorist organization?

 

[Alceste]

Hi Alceste,

Do you think Hamas is a terrorist organization?

Yes. I define terrorism as the use of violence against civilians to achieve political objectives. So Hamas is exceptionally well qualified, as are several particularly militant states.

 

[icehorse]

Cool. Do you think that Hamas's terrorist stance is consistently made a part of the context when this conflict is being reported and discussed?

I do not. I feel that apologists tend to sweep this - extremely important fact - under the carpet.

 

[LuisDantas]

I wonder why anyone would feel that way. Hamas is consistently understood to be a terrorist group by everyone I know.

 

[Aquitaine]

I wonder why anyone would feel that way. Hamas is consistently understood to be a terrorist group by everyone I know.

Same here. I don't understand where these "Hamas sympathetic Media reporting" claims are coming from?

Probably people who simply flip out when there is even a *hint* of IDF criticism in any particular report/article.

 

[Alceste]

Cool. Do you think that Hamas's terrorist stance is consistently made a part of the context when this conflict is being reported and discussed?

I do not. I feel that apologists tend to sweep this - extremely important fact - under the carpet.

Really? I don't agree. Perhaps you are confusing criticism of Israel blowing up Palestinian children with acceptance of Hamas.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Cool. Do you think that Hamas's terrorist stance is consistently made a part of the context when this conflict is being reported and discussed?

I do not. I feel that apologists tend to sweep this - extremely important fact - under the carpet.

What planet are you living on? We're constantly reminded of how horrible Hamas is and how Israel needs to destroy them to "protect" themselves. What we need to be talking about is how the US, British and Israeli forces are far bigger terrorist organizations!

 

[icehorse]

We could start with the simple idea that while many countries would claim that they don't negotiate with terrorists, they will negotiate with Hamas. In fact the UN recognizes Palestine as an "observer state". (Much to my disappointment.) So here we have terrorists openly running a state... huh?

it seems to me that EVERY discussion of this situation should start with a refresher on just exactly who it is that Israel is fighting.

Alceste - Israel is defending itself in a war that Hamas started. It's horrible - as I've said before I wish the violence would stop - but in war, civilians get killed.

You don't make it clear where you live, but if terrorists arrived at the border of Alceste-istan and marched into your country holding their children in front of them and firing on, and killing your citizens, what would you do?

 

[LuisDantas]

We could start with the simple idea that while many countries would claim that they don't negotiate with terrorists, they will negotiate with Hamas. In fact the UN recognizes Palestine as an "observer state". (Much to my disappointment.) So here we have terrorists openly running a state... huh?

You seem to find that exceptional. Alas, it is not.

Nor is it unusual to negotiate with terrorists, often in secrecy. It is all but unavoidable, really.

it seems to me that EVERY discussion of this situation should start with a refresher on just exactly who it is that Israel is fighting.

Alceste - Israel is defending itself in a war that Hamas started. It's horrible - as I've said before I wish the violence would stop - but in war, civilians get killed.

That is a poor defense to start with, and it is aggravated by the fact that Israel has de fato control of Gaza, at least militarily.

You don't make it clear where you live, but if terrorists arrived at the border of Alceste-istan and marched into your country holding their children in front of them and firing on, and killing your citizens, what would you do?

Better than the IDF. That is a safe bet.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We could start with the simple idea that while many countries would claim that they don't negotiate with terrorists, they will negotiate with Hamas. In fact the UN recognizes Palestine as an "observer state". (Much to my disappointment.) So here we have terrorists openly running a state... huh?

it seems to me that EVERY discussion of this situation should start with a refresher on just exactly who it is that Israel is fighting.

Alceste - Israel is defending itself in a war that Hamas started. It's horrible - as I've said before I wish the violence would stop - but in war, civilians get killed.

You don't make it clear where you live, but if terrorists arrived at the border of Alceste-istan and marched into your country holding their children in front of them and firing on, and killing your citizens, what would you do?

Too bad that's a bunch of propaganda not based in reality: Look Carefully at Who Started the Current Israel-Hamas Conflict - NYTimes.com

 

[icehorse]

Too bad that's a bunch of propaganda not based in reality: Look Carefully at Who Started the Current Israel-Hamas Conflict - NYTimes.com

For the sake of discussion, let's say that your NYT article was perfectly accurate. All you've done is arbitrarily pick one slice of time out of a larger picture. You use this slice of time, I go back a bit further and point to Hamas's standing charter.

The one thing I'll credit your article for was to include Egypt in the description of the blockade - which was the point of the OP.

It's hard to stay on topic when discussing this conflict, but back to the OP:

Israel's blockade would mean very little if Egypt wasn't also creating their own blockade. Why isn't this issue being discussed in the world?

 

[Alceste]

For the sake of discussion, let's say that your NYT article was perfectly accurate. All you've done is arbitrarily pick one slice of time out of a larger picture. You use this slice of time, I go back a bit further and point to Hamas's standing charter.

The one thing I'll credit your article for was to include Egypt in the description of the blockade - which was the point of the OP.

It's hard to stay on topic when discussing this conflict, but back to the OP:

Israel's blockade would mean very little if Egypt wasn't also creating their own blockade. Why isn't this issue being discussed in the world?

It was, before the IDF started dropping bombs on Palestinian children. The latter is a bigger story.

 

[Alceste]

We could start with the simple idea that while many countries would claim that they don't negotiate with terrorists, they will negotiate with Hamas. In fact the UN recognizes Palestine as an "observer state". (Much to my disappointment.) So here we have terrorists openly running a state... huh?

it seems to me that EVERY discussion of this situation should start with a refresher on just exactly who it is that Israel is fighting.

Alceste - Israel is defending itself in a war that Hamas started. It's horrible - as I've said before I wish the violence would stop - but in war, civilians get killed.

You don't make it clear where you live, but if terrorists arrived at the border of Alceste-istan and marched into your country holding their children in front of them and firing on, and killing your citizens, what would you do?

The last time we had a serious conflict with militant sovereigntists in my country, we arrested them and hung their leader. We didn't have to slaughter several thousand civilians to get the job done.

 

[CMike]

It was, before the IDF started dropping bombs on Palestinian children. The latter is a bigger story.

They dropped bombs on Hamas terrorists.

Unfortunately the Hamas terrorists use their own people as hostages hoping they will die because it looks good for the camera.

They also know that Israel cares more about their civilians than they do so they believe that surrounding themsevles with their own civilians will protect them.

 

[CMike]

The last time we had a serious conflict with militant sovereigntists in my country, we arrested them and hung their leader. We didn't have to slaughter several thousand civilians to get the job done.

If this was another country Gaza would be leveled by now.

 

[Alceste]

They dropped bombs on Hamas terrorists.

Unfortunately the Hamas terrorists use their own people as hostages hoping they will die because it looks good for the camera.

They also know that Israel cares more about their civilians than they do so they believe that surrounding themsevles with their own civilians will protect them.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.