Gaza: Comparing Egypt's blockade to Israel's?

[Alceste]

See those people are not protesting against ISIS

They were protesting against the US-caused violence and chaos that - very predictably - provided ISIS a fertile breeding ground in which to operate.

But I will start a new thread explaining why progressives don't bother protesting against various non-state actors who don't give a fiddler's fart what protesters think.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We protested in Canada, and Canada subsequently did not join the war. Protest works, but there were flaws in that concept that doomed it to failure in the more militant countries. For example, people went out for one day then patted themselves on the back and went home. Mass protest activism needs to be sustained and escalate over time to be effective.

The Occupy protests were slightly more effective, in that they went on long enough to sway politics in the centre-right Democratic Party ever so slightly to the left. Now we at least get to see progressive voices like Elizabeth Warren in the news. It's not much, but it's better than nothing.

In the case of Palestine / Israel, public opposition has resulted in a barely perceptible wavering in the previously staunch "anything goes" and "our bank account is your bank account" approach US governments in both parties had toward Israel. Granted, there are other factors involved, for example the fact that the US is broke, but this is the first time in (my) living memory the US has considered attaching any conditions at all to their military aid to Israel.

Good point. I wasn't around during that time, but the Vietnam War protests also helped to turn the tide of public opinion on that.

 

[Alceste]

Good point. I wasn't during that time, but the Vietnam War protests also helped to turn the tide of public opinion on that.

The Vietnam War protests changed the world, IMO. They definitely changed parts of Canada, for the better. We still have whole communities that were inundated with American draft dodgers that maintain the libertarian / anarchist / pacifist / hippy inclinations of the young men who flooded across the border in protest.

One of my biggest disappointments in recent Canadian history is that we didn't continue that noble history by accepting conscientious objectors from the US during the Iraq war, although several of them sought sanctuary here.

We live in democracies, you and I. Flawed and sluggish, but still fundamentally accountable to the public. We should never underestimate the significance of public opinion.

 

[Alceste]

I think you have misunderstood my post.
My point with my previous posts was to show that thousands protested against Israel but hardly anyone protests against ISIS. Pictures of Protest against 2003 Iraq War by Alceste were not relevant to the current discussion about rather small public response to ISIS atrocities compared to Gaza.

Boston Tea Party, 1773 - Stonewall and Other Effective Protest Movements - TIME
This article by Time seems to suggest Protest do change things.

As promised, here is a thread for exploring why progressives make more noise about Israel than ISIS: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...y-dont-progressives-protest-against-isis.html

 

[metis]

I think Israel should work with the PA, not Hamas. Coming to a peaceful resolution in the WB would have significant spillover effects in Gaza, especially if the region were included as part of a new Palestinian state.

They have been.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think Israel should work with the PA, not Hamas.

They have been.

By championing settlement-building, by breaking off negotiations, and by inflicting those on the West Bank with waves if civil rights abuse? Seriously?

And now, some 2,000 deaths later, the man who blustered that he would not negotiate with a Palestinian unity government is negotiating with a Palestinian unity government.

 

[metis]

See: 2013

There also has been some informal contact between the two since then, according to what I've read.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

See: 2013

This strikes me as a pretty good summary of the talks. Thanks.

 

[metis]

Just a note that since I have Jayhawker Soule on ignore, if there's anything on any thread that he brings up that you would like me to respond to, please just post it yourself in your own words.

 

[metis]

Some may be interested in this, reported today:

... The indirect talks have been going on, through Egyptian mediators, since early last week. As Palestinian and Israeli negotiators returned to Cairo on Sunday following a weekend of consultations across the Middle East, the gaps remained wide... -- Palestinian Divisions Emerge In Gaza Truce Talks

 

[Alceste]

Just a note that since I have Jayhawker Soule on ignore, if there's anything on any thread that he brings up that you would like me to respond to, please just post it yourself in your own words.

No response needed. I think he summed it up perfectly.

 

[metis]

I hardly ever report posts, since people are gonna be like whatever they're like. I've made an exception for this post because I choose to believe you are capable of respectful discourse and ad hominem is beneath you.

In this case, I do agree with you, so I deleted it. Sorry.

[btw, just to be clear, I deleted my post not because of any fear of repercussions from the Staff but because it was indeed wrong]

 

[Alceste]

In this case, I do agree with you, so I deleted it. Sorry.

[btw, just to be clear, I deleted my post not because of any fear of repercussions from the Staff but because it was indeed wrong]

Thank you. I know this topic is a sensitive one and it's easy to get hot under the collar. I apologize for anything I've said that may have come off rude or offensive and personal.

 

[CMike]

Explains a bit

You Won’t Believe What Children Watch on Hamas Television | Israel Video Network

 

[metis]

Thank you. I know this topic is a sensitive one and it's easy to get hot under the collar. I apologize for anything I've said that may have come off rude or offensive and personal.

No worries, and thanks.

 

[RitalinOhD]

If one actually reads Hamas' charter, and one actually listens to Hamas' leaders, they would know why CC's proposals simply will not work. Secondly, Israel does not target children, and to suggest they do is nothing but a blatant lie. Thirdly, no war involving the weapons used by countries today have discovered a way to hit targets imbetted in civilian areas but somehow spare civilians.

So explain to me how the IDF using Flachette rounds and white phosphorus is in any way an attempt to minimize collateral damage.

Sorry, but there is no excuse to bombing buildings known to be housing large groups of civilians. I wasn't ok with it happening in Iraq, and I'm not ok with the happening in gaza. BTW, I've been in the US military for over 18 years now, and I'm very critical of it when that crap happens. However, I can tell you that it's not policy to bomb buildings known to be housing large groups of civilians. Does it happen? Sure, way more than it should, but I can assure you a lot of effort goes into avoiding those mistakes. And commanders do get fired, and the people responsible do get charged when it happens. You just don't see it in the media, which I disagree with.

 

[CMike]

So explain to me how the IDF using Flachette rounds and white phosphorus is in any way an attempt to minimize collateral damage.

Sorry, but there is no excuse to bombing buildings known to be housing large groups of civilians. I wasn't ok with it happening in Iraq, and I'm not ok with the happening in gaza. BTW, I've been in the US military for over 18 years now, and I'm very critical of it when that crap happens. However, I can tell you that it's not policy to bomb buildings known to be housing large groups of civilians. Does it happen? Sure, way more than it should, but I can assure you a lot of effort goes into avoiding those mistakes. And commanders do get fired, and the people responsible do get charged when it happens. You just don't see it in the media, which I disagree with.

The difference is that the enemy intentinally attacks from civilian buildings.

It tells it's civilians to around them when they attack so they are human shields.

Israel has a to protecte it's own civilians.

Before it attacks, it calls, texts, and drops leaflets for civilans telling them to leave the area. No other country has done that.

If the civilans are still there it's because they chose to be there or Hamas is forcing them to be there.

 

[RitalinOhD]

The difference is that the enemy intentinally attacks from civilian buildings.

It tells it's civilians to around them when they attack so they are human shields.

Israel has a to protecte it's own civilians.

Before it attacks, it calls, texts, and drops leaflets for civilans telling them to leave the area. No other country has done that.

If the civilans are still there it's because they chose to be there or Hamas is forcing them to be there.

Last I Checked, the IDF has a pretty robust army, as well as special forces. Dropping bombs on schools and hospitals isn't their only option. Matter of fact, doing so, instead of utilizing that army for what it's designed to do is at the very least extremely irresponsible.

 

[Alceste]

Last I Checked, the IDF has a pretty robust army, as well as special forces. Dropping bombs on schools and hospitals isn't their only option. Matter of fact, doing so, instead of utilizing that army for what it's designed to do is at the very least extremely irresponsible.

Netanyahu has been candidly recorded discussing his intentions in Palestine. He wants to hit them, hit them hard, and manipulate them through fear. He is proud of his achievements in sabotaging peace negotiations and follows the general approach of "giving back two percent" while taking over the rest.

His "hit them, hit them hard, because it's only through fear..." comments (which were recorded before this latest flare-up) are one of the main reasons I do not believe the IDF is genuinely trying to avoid civilian casualties. Netanyahu is a terrorist with a big PR budget.

Edit:Netanyahu Unaware of the Camera 'America can easi…: http://youtu.be/JrtuBas3Ipw

 

[RitalinOhD]

Netanyahu has been candidly recorded discussing his intentions in Palestine. He wants to hit them, hit them hard, and manipulate them through fear. He is proud of his achievements in sabotaging peace negotiations and follows the general approach of "giving back two percent" while taking over the rest.

His "hit them, hit them hard, because it's only through fear..." comments (which were recorded before this latest flare-up) are one of the main reasons I do not believe the IDF is genuinely trying to avoid civilian casualties. Netanyahu is a terrorist with a big PR budget.

Considering there's been at last count, 2016 civilians killed, to include 541 children, anyone trying to argue that the IDF IS trying to avoid it, is out of their mind.