Gender Apartheid

[Revoltingest]

Maybe if Hamas didn't want to rid the world of Jews there wouldn't be a "genocide" in Gaza and we could stay in topic.

Is this a claim that Jews want to exterminate
Palestinians because of Hamas?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That won't always be comfortable - a lot of western luxuries are created by seriously mistreating workers in other countries - that kind of thing needs to stop, and too bad if that means your iPhone costs twice as much.

It would be more than iPhone. If the USA gave up the exploitation that drives prices down (including ending subsidies that add to the mess) the prices of basically everything would go up.

 

[crossfire]

If you can, stop thinking about Gaza for a minute.

Now, my claim is that Islam is horribly misogynistic and it does not get the thorough bashing it deserves. And women in Muslim majority countries are being left high and dry because the non-Muslim world chooses to look the other way.

If you agree with everything I've said in this thread, then you and I have no debate on this point.

It's easy to pick up harmful habits and customs, or have them imposed from the outside. It's difficult to transform harmful habits and customs into more beneficial ones--and that transformation must come from within in order to have any lasting effect.

 

[icehorse]

Well, I guess that answers my question.

Could you be a little more ambiguous?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hmmm.. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you here:

Are you saying that human rights violations in other countries are not everyone's concern?

It's not that it's a concern, it's that getting militarily involved tends to mostly turn bad situations into worse situations. Sort of like how killing Sadam helped cleae the way for ISIS. South and Central America states saw democratically elected regimes toppled and replaced with dictators.
Ditto for blockades. Those don't hurt the tyrants but the People of that state they take from to keep their own comfort.
So what do you do that won't make things worse?

 

[icehorse]

It would be more than iPhone. If the USA gave up the exploitation that drives prices down (including ending subsidies that add to the mess) the prices of basically everything would go up.

Hey, we agree!

And so they should, if we're going to save the planet.

 

[icehorse]

It's easy to pick up harmful habits and customs, or have them imposed from the outside. It's difficult to transform harmful habits and customs into more beneficial ones--and that transformation must come from within in order to have any lasting effect.

Agreed - so perhaps we start with aiding in general education for women and girls?

 

[icehorse]

Again i have a problem with entities, including the UN, declaring what constitutes violations of human rights.

And if it costs twice as much fewer will be bought which means fewer will be made which means fewer people will have the means to even get close to getting out of poverty. We think it's horrific that people get paid $10 a day but people in countries where those phones are made line up form those jobs. We would prefer they live in poverty so we can feel better about ourselves for having corrected human rights "violations".

So what if we make it simple and rely on the Golden Rule?

 

[Ignatius A]

Is this a claim that Jews want to exterminate
Palestinians because of Hamas?

You you mean in the same way that Hamas wants to exterminate Jews because they claim to have a problem with Zionists? How many Jews did Hamas indiscriminately kill on Oct 7 in the hopes of killing zionists? How do you think hamas tells them apart?

 

[icehorse]

It's not that it's a concern, it's that getting militarily involved tends to mostly turn bad situations into worse situations. Sort of like how killing Sadam helped cleae the way for ISIS. South and Central America states saw democratically elected regimes toppled and replaced with dictators.
Ditto for blockades. Those don't hurt the tyrants but the People of that state they take from to keep their own comfort.
So what do you do that won't make things worse?

How about education for women and girls in the third world and the Islamic world?

 

[Revoltingest]

You you mean in the same way that Hamas wants to....

I mean for you to answer the question.
I read what you posted. And rather than
assume what appeared to be an awful
intent, I'm asking.

 

[Ignatius A]

So what if we make it simple and rely on the Golden Rule?

Is the golden rule a universally accepted precept? You need to show evidence for the moral authority you possess to impose your practices on others. Look in don't disagree with you but I have a problem with who gets to decide whats right or wrong for other people. I'm not saying we shouldn't try but it's a hairy business were undertaking when we do it.

 

[sayak83]

Hmmm.. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you here:

Are you saying that human rights violations in other countries are not everyone's concern?

I think how to cure West's savior complex should be the number one concern for the world.

 

[icehorse]

Is the golden rule a universally accepted precept? You need to show evidence for the moral authority you possess to impose your practices on others. Look in don't disagree with you but I have a problem with who gets to decide whats right or wrong for other people. I'm not saying we shouldn't try but it's a hairy business were undertaking when we do it.

Indeed, but I don't think we have a choice.

 

[Brickjectivity]

UN's universal declaration on human rights.

Please do not look to the UN to support rights. It does not and cannot, and that is obvious. What the UN should do is be honest. "Some of our members believe in human rights and some do not," instead of this obufiscating lie. It declares human rights? It has no authority to declare what is a right. It doesn't even believe in rights, only in saying what pleases (for now) the West.

 

[crossfire]

Agreed - so perhaps we start with aiding in general education for women and girls?

I'm all for that.

 

[Ignatius A]

I mean for you to answer the question.
I read what you posted. And rather than
assume what appeared to be an awful
intent, I'm asking.

I did answer. You don't seem to like it. I really do wish that mattered to me but it doesn't. Its terrible that Palestinians are being killed just like it's terrible that Jews are killed. Can we agree on that point or not?

 

[Ignatius A]

Indeed, but I don't think we have a choice.

There is always a choice. When you intervene into business that isnt yours you create resentment and enemies. When we tell people how bad Islam is because of their poor treatment of populations of people we in the west glorify, it creates resentment in them. We may be right but we can't be surprised when people retaliate. Are you willing to listen to Islam about all the stuff you're doing wrong?

 

[icehorse]

Please do not look to the UN to support rights. It does not and cannot, and that is obvious. What the UN should do is be honest. "Some of our members believe in human rights and some do not," instead of this obufiscating lie. It declares human rights? It has no authority to declare what is a right. It doesn't even believe in rights, only in saying what pleases (for now) the West.

I mostly agree with you, i think the UN is corrupt, perhaps beyond repair.

But I was referring to a declaration that was created decades ago, in far less corrupt times

 

[Heyo]

Wow, I find that perspective surprising:

- that more or less dooms hundreds of millions of women to truly horrible lives.
- that implies a sort of "post truth", moral relativist stance
- more selfishly, I think it dooms us all to a mad-max world, coming soon to us all

It is simply realism. Every time, even with only good intentions, when anyone has tried to "save" people with cultural colonialism, it has ended up in a disaster. There are ways (sanctions) and authorities (UN), which are explicitly there for dealing with these issues, and it is OK to address your government to implement the sanctions.
I don't berate a business if I think they are acting unethical. I don't do business with them. When the unethical goes to criminal, I call the police.