Arnaud1221
Red-hood
I see what they offer as a compass for their follower. Some sort of guide in religion.
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Generally speaking, are churches a scam?
- Thread starter an anarchist
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I would rather say, some people are fakes.
And when an Apostle goes forth let him accept nothing but bread till he reach his night's lodging; but if he ask for money, he is a false prophet.
Didakhe XI:6 (~The Didache~)
This summarizes my response as well. I just quoted it, though, because I didn't want to spend and exorbitant amount of time typing it out.
By extension, it is impossible to know with any certainty that anyone communicating with you about anything believes what they say. This means all human interpersonal interactions that involve money are scams, by your own low-bar criteria.
To add, being a pastor really isn't a "lucrative career choice." The U.S. Department of Labor puts together numerous resources to aid those seeking employment. One of those is Career OneStop, which has tons of data on careers including salary ranges. This is the page about clergy:
The 90th percentile doesn't even hit six figures and the median is not much better than a teacher's wage at $60k annually. On top of that, it has a terrible job occupation outlook with slow to negligible growth. These data do not indicate this is a field you go into to strike it rich. In fact, considering things like this is part of why I didn't go in this direction myself.
Yeah, again this more or less means that anyone paid money in exchange for a service is a scam. My job is a scam. Your job is a scam. All of it is a scam. I don't think that's a useful way to look at it. As @JustGeorge mentioned, being clergy is a profession and it is a ton of work and should be paid accordingly. Especially since it is not uncommon for the job to demand a master's degree or doctoral degree. They're severely underpaid given their level of education, honestly.
I Am Hugh
Researcher
Generally speaking, I would say sort of. A dishonest scheme; fraud. Organized religion is like anything. The more money it generates the more it needs the more corrupt it becomes. Look at the Watchtower. It's a show, a production, a facade. The last I looked, which was years ago, they had billions of dollars in assets. That year they had made 16 billion dollars in real estate alone, and they were admonishing their "brothers and sisters," who were barely getting by, for not giving enough to "the society." On top of that they were selling many of their congregations, making their suckers travel, sometimes substantial distances to put on their fancy dress and go to the congregation to hear about how wonderful it all is. BUT you have to realize that those "brothers and sisters" were supporting "the organization" in going along with the show. They either thought they were getting something out of it, some false sense of spiritual superiority or a ticket to paradise, or they should have known better. I was on the outside and I could see it. They should have seen it better than I.
It's like politics. The millions or billions of people elect or tolerate a few criminals and go along with it.
I find it amazing that some would so casually and callously dismiss the honest intent of millions upon millions of people. It reflects an astounding arrogance.
I Am Hugh
Researcher
Really? It seems rational and logical to me. I would say the same about science, medicine, government, education, the military. It's human nature. It isn't arrogant, it's honest. It isn't casual or callous. It's honest and fair. I mean, we could go in depth, more so than the example of the Watchtower I gave, but what is the point? It's obvious. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Look at Ukraine, how many have died? For what? Really. Look at the history of religion. Look at a charity. Don't just look at the seemingly kind intentions but what is actually going on. Look at Sister Theresa. Look at the philanthropy of the likes of Rockefeller, Carnage, the Clintons, or Gates. It doesn't take much digging to see.
I'm sorry to hear that. Do you honestly believe that all those folks are intentionally trying to scam others?
How dare we have a serious and religious forum when there is someone who has been harmed by a church. There must be endless threads about their experience. It is a valid question but gets brought up a little too often in a forum for religious people aimed at communicating and sharing religious concepts. Oh look its another "I got hurt by my church" thread. How surprising. Wow can't wait for the next thread. I wonder what it will be about this time?
That's a valid point.
@Quintessence made a thread recently about the good churches do in the community and I think it got one response?
I think, societally speaking, we are told to hang on to our pain and grievances, and take our joys for granted, as if they are to be expected.
I Am Hugh
Researcher
Biased much? Just let them tell you how great it would be if you quietly let them rob you, not so much about how they robbed you?
One must wonder if paranoid personality disorder is playing some role here. Believing that most humans are scamming you sounds like a warning sign of PPD to me. What an awful perspective to have to live with, and folks who have it aren't likely to seek help because of the very disorder they need treatment for.
I don't think he is biased, and I don't think @Brickjectivity condones robbery.
I think(and I invite him to correct me if I'm wrong) there's a frustration from some of us religious types that there's often more threads that intend to figuratively defecate on religion than to discuss or celebrate it.
We're having a serious discussion about the thoughtless non sequitur that suggests:
"someone [...] has been harmed by a church,"
therefore all churches a scams.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I think that some churches are, and some aren't. Megachurches come to mind, and televangelists do, too. And there are a few churches that, I think, are sincere in their efforts to help their community. I've been to churches where the congregation faced pressure to tithe, whereas other churches I've attended encouraged tithing without resorting to guilt-tripping and shaming tactics. Having said that, I don't think that the majority of Christian churches are frauds.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
With all due respect and no offense intended, you don't know the depth of what someone has been through unless you walk a mile in their shoes. I believe this is true, even if this person shares a few stories about what they experienced. In my case, for example, I've barely scratched the surface of what I have suffered and the personal hardships I've had because of the childhood abuse I endured at the hands of Christians. It isn't a matter of simply putting this traumatizing experience behind you or understanding that not all Christians are the same. I'm well aware of this because my husband is a Christian who has spent the last 32 years of his life caring for me. His love and care for me, however, doesn't change the fact that I don't trust other Christians. I have a long lifetime (40+ years) of experience that undeniably proves to me that I need to be on my guard around them and not naively trust them because they're Christians. I grew up around Christians and spent the majority of my life surrounded by them as well. The truth is that I know very few of them who genuinely live up to what they profess as Christians. In fact, I consider them and my husband to be the exception rather than the rule. To be honest, if it weren't for them, I believe I'd be within my right to be leery of Christians. For the record, I've admitted in previous posts that I don't normally trust them; in fact, I just recently did so (see here). Finally, there's no need to question my participation on RF with Christians present, because I've already explained why I'm here, and it has nothing to do with them. Yes, it has caused me some emotional strain, but I deal with it. I deal with it by ignoring it or taking a break.
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Thanks. You are right that we fail to come up with enough material for the best thread opportunities. If I posted good material all the time it wouldn't be an issue would it. I don't see people reading my threads and going "Wow" or "Amazing post, Brick!" True. There is a vacuum, and into vacuum shall flow all things.
I'm aware of what you are talking about. Been there, and I've posted threads about it. I could post one every week. Every day really. I have all sorts of dirt on churches. Lots of dirt, lots of problems and agonies I could describe. Oh what sufferings we could all relish in together. It wouldn't move us towards solutions.
You express your problems and frustrations how many times to the same people though? Would you want to be caught in a samsara of every day saying how you were hurt? Would you want to become like that lady in Cold Comfort Farm that spends every moment reciting "I saw something nasty in the woodshed!" ?
Finally is that what you'd want RF to become? Like that lady?
I know that it is zero justification for hurtful overgeneralizations.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I have shared my experiences here, just as I have done in my support group for survivors of childhood abuse with other former Christians. I find discussing my experiences and talking to others who have also had negative experiences similar to mine therapeutic. It's something I learned to do while in therapy.