Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

[I Am Hugh]

Thanks. You are right that we fail to come up with enough material for the best thread opportunities. If I posted good material all the time it wouldn't be an issue would it. I don't see people reading my threads and going "Wow" or "Amazing post, Brick!" True. There is a vacuum, and into vacuum shall flow all things.

I'm aware of what you are talking about. Been there, and I've posted threads about it. I could post one every week. Every day really. I have all sorts of dirt on churches. Lots of dirt, lots of problems and agonies I could describe. Oh what sufferings we could all relish in together. It wouldn't move us towards solutions.

I don't really think solutions are required. Real boats rock. I don't see any point in looking for solutions. Solutions to what? It seems to be working. When I hear someone going on about how the people in their church were imperfect in this or that way, I think, yeah, people are imperfect. When I hear about how much of a scam it is I think, yeah, why did you go in the first place? I mean, you didn't know that? Why not? Did you just walk off the street? What were you looking for, exactly? God? C'mon.

When I criticize church, I'm not coming from an unfair or biased perspective. It is what it is. That's why I'm not a part of it. When I was 5 years old, I decided - once - to go to church with my grandmother. Before the nonsense started, just listening to the preacher or pastor or whatever he was called, I literally ran out of the place into the cold spring rain and ran home. Never went back. I was 5.

If you're a rational adult going to church you will probably find what you are looking for. Hypocrisy, ignorance, greed, self-righteousness, superstition, rumors, class distinctions, etc. And some good stuff too. If you fit in like you're supposed to you will be welcomed, embraced even. The question isn't what is the solution, the question is why would you want to. Whatever the answer to that is, it is all you need. It doesn't matter what I think. I wouldn't offer a solution other than to go on to church. It's nothing to do with me. None of my business.

But I won't pretend like it's something it isn't. To each his own.

 

[Eddi]

Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

I think that generally speaking churches are not scams

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Oh what sufferings we could all relish in together. It wouldn't move us towards solutions.

After years of therapy, I've discovered that discussing my suffering with others has helped me move forward towards solutions. For example, I made the decision to renounce my belief in God and Christian faith after discussing my suffering with my husband, in-laws, and friends in my survivors of childhood abuse support group. That may not seem like a good solution to some, but it has literally changed my life for the better, and it has also helped me heal emotionally and spiritually. In fact, as I've stated before, it was one of the best decisions I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being.

 

[I Am Hugh]

I don't think he is biased, and I don't think @Brickjectivity condones robbery.

Okay. Fair enough. We disagree, although I don't actually respond to a person I respond to words, thoughts, data. And everything I say is my opinion. Nothing more than personal observation. I think church robs people of truth, spirituality, and teachings. Also, dogma robs people of debate. Don't question, don't criticize, don't learn. I'm not talking about whining, complaining and divisions. They also take money from the poor and give it to the rich. If the church is rich. All of that is a generalization based on real world data, but it doesn't mean it applies to all churches. Just like child molestation isn't practiced by all priests. Just as not all politicians are ignorant criminals and murderers. Just most of them.

I think(and I invite him to correct me if I'm wrong) there's a frustration from some of us religious types that there's often more threads that intend to figuratively defecate on religion than to discuss or celebrate it.

You are the ones who should be at the fore, with the loudest voices, proclaiming, not what you feel or how wonderful your experience has been, but the truth because you are responsible for exposing the wrongs, not me. And the newcomer is responsible. When I studied with the JWs I liked the Awake magazine because it was a break from theology. One day I got one through the mail with rows of photos of children on the cover who had died due to their ban on blood transfusions and I took it to my study conductor who was the Presiding Overseer of the congregation, a real nice guy who I had come to love like a father figure, and I said can you tell me for sure these children didn't die in vain. He and I both knew that his wife had died due to the ban on organ transplants, which was totally unsupported by scripture and they eventually had changed. It was too late for her. He sadly shook his head and said no. That was enough for me. That was the end of my studies. I couldn't condone that. Now, if you molest a child in the JW congregation you won't be disfellowshipped, but you will be disfellowshipped if you go to the police. They sweep it under the rug because even for years they exposed the Catholic church for the same, they don't want to bring reproach upon Jehovah. So, they are a shelter for child molesters. It's the law to report, and they say follow the law unless it interferes with God's law. Does it? Who were the prophets in ancient Israel exposing in God's religion upon the insistence of God himself? Often at the risk of their own lives. It's unfortunate if that offends you.

The reason for sweeping wrongdoing under the rug isn't the fear of bringing reproach upon God himself, but the God religion has become. Religion is the true God, in place of God himself.

 

[Brickjectivity]

After years of therapy, I've discovered that discussing my suffering with others has helped me move forward towards solutions. For example, I made the decision to renounce my belief in God and Christian faith after discussing my suffering with my husband, in-laws, and friends in my survivors of childhood support group. That may not seem like a good solution to some people, but it has literally changed my life for the better, and it has also helped me heal emotionally and spiritually. In fact, as I've stated before, it was one of the best decisions I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being.

Your solution: to leave religion. That is not a solution for all is it, yet its all I hear about on a supposed forum for religious people to discuss religion. You don't make constant threads about leaving religion, but some people do. Its almost all they do. No, you also make other content; because you actually have some interest in religious discussion.

There are forums specifically to support people who have left and been hurt by religion. There are depression recovery forums, all kinds of support forums. Plenty of "I left religion" forums. There are ex-Muslim forums, ex-Christian forums...all kinds of ex-religion forums.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You are the ones who should be at the fore, with the loudest voices, proclaiming, not what you feel or how wonderful your experience has been, but the truth because you are responsible for exposing the wrongs, not me. And the newcomer is responsible...

Not on RF. That isn't what its for. Its not butt-hurt forums. Its religious forums.

 

[JustGeorge]

Okay. Fair enough. We disagree, although I don't actually respond to a person I respond to words, thoughts, data. And everything I say is my opinion. Nothing more than personal observation. I think church robs people of truth, spirituality, and teachings. Also, dogma robs people of debate. Don't question, don't criticize, don't learn. I'm not talking about whining, complaining and divisions. They also take money from the poor and give it to the rich. If the church is rich. All of that is a generalization based on real world data, but it doesn't mean it applies to all churches. Just like child molestation isn't practiced by all priests. Just as not all politicians are ignorant criminals and murderers. Just most of them.

I don't really have any dogmas.

We're just noting the trend of finding fault as to finding joy.

You are the ones who should be at the fore, with the loudest voices, proclaiming, not what you feel or how wonderful your experience has been, but the truth because you are responsible for exposing the wrongs, not me. And the newcomer is responsible. When I studied with the JWs I liked the Awake magazine because it was a break from theology. One day I got one through the mail with rows of children who had died due to their ban on blood transfusions and I took it to my study conductor who was the Presiding Overseer of the congregation, a real nice guy who I had come to love like a father figure, and I said can you tell me for sure these children didn't die in vain. He and I both knew that his wife had died due to the ban on organ transplants, which was totally unsupported by scripture and they eventually had changed. It was too late for her. He sadly shook his head and said no. That was enough for me. That was the end of my studies. I couldn't condone that. Now, if you molest a child in the JW congregation you won't be disfellowshipped, but you will be disfellowshipped if you go to the police. They sweep it under the rug because even for years they exposed the Catholic church for the same, they don't want to bring reproach upon Jehovah. So, they are a shelter for child molesters. It's the law to report, and they say follow the law unless it interferes with God's law. Does it? Who were the prophets in ancient Israel exposing in God's religion upon the insistence of God himself? Often at the risk of their own lives. It's unfortunate if that offends you.

The reason for sweeping wrongdoing under the rug isn't the fear of bringing reproach upon God himself, but the God religion has become. Religion is the true God, in place of God himself.

I am a Hindu and polytheist, and I can't speak of or for this.

 

[Kathryn]

I'd like to suggest that perhaps it is not such a "much higher bar" to clear. Though, it is impossible to know with any certainty if a Pastor believes or not what he preaches. And perhaps a genuine but naive pastor is part of a larger church organization which has suspect characters. Anecdotal conjecture on my part. But I do suspect that many pastors don't genuinely believe Christianity, rather, being a Pastor is a lucrative career choice.



I suppose I don't have strict criteria. Even if a Pastor genuinely believes that you should cough up ten percent of your paycheck to him. Even if that same Pastor genuinely believes that they have a God given right to pay their own bills with the tithe money, I still call it a scam.

I think a Pastor shouldn't personally profit from tithes. When I started Bible college as a zealous Christian on route to become a Pastor, I was intent on having a day job in conjunction with being a Pastor. I saw it and still see it as immoral for a Pastor to make a living off of tithes. This is what I call a scam. The pastor's genuinity is irrelevant, though I think it is fair to suspect in many cases.

Tithing is cool. Mutually funding a place of worship is cool. The Pastor should work a day job and help pay the church bills, not be a church bill.

Most pastors I know aren't living in the lap of luxury by a long shot. Sure, a few are and a few are scams but I don't think most are.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Your solution: to leave religion. That is not a solution for all is it, yet its all I hear about on a supposed forum for religious people to discuss religion. You don't make constant threads about leaving religion, but some people do. Its almost all they do. No, you also make other content; because you actually have some interest in religious discussion.

Yes, I enjoy religious discussions, and I also find some paranormal discussions interesting, too.

I've also talked about how being a Wicca, Druid, and spiritualist has had a very positive impact on my life.

There are forums specifically to support people who have left and been hurt by religion. There are depression recovery forums, all kinds of support forums. Plenty of "I left religion" forums. There are ex-Muslim forums, ex-Christian forums...all kinds of ex-religion forums.

In my opinion, discussing the negative aspects of religion is almost as important as discussing its positive aspects. I think that they go hand in hand.

 

[I Am Hugh]

Not on RF. That isn't what its for. Its not butt-hurt forums. Its religious forums.

Only the good stuff. As you see it. As they see it. Is it a discussion forum with only rose-colored glasses? I don't think so. There are limits, rules, but it isn't all warm and fuzzy. It shouldn't be. We shouldn't want it to be. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I don't belong here.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Only the good stuff. As you see it. As they see it. Is it a discussion forum with only rose-colored glasses? I don't think so. There are limits, rules, but it isn't all warm and fuzzy. It shouldn't be. We shouldn't want it to be.

I agree with this.

But I don't agree with this...

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I don't belong here.

I don't think you're wrong, and I also think that you belong here.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Most pastors I know aren't living in the lap of luxury by a long shot. Sure, a few are and a few are scams but I don't think most are.

I know of some pastors who are struggling to get by and have second (and third) jobs in order to survive and feed their families, but I've also seen some in churches who made me immediately think, "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." It goes both ways.

 

[I Am Hugh]

I don't really have any dogmas.

Okay. I'll take your word for that. I sort of think we all do; I just think they are personal responsibility, but used in that way it makes it sort of a misnomer. We are ultimately the authority regarding our own dogma.

We're just noting the trend of finding fault as to finding joy.

Very well. Good job.

I am a Hindu and polytheist, and I can't speak of or for this.

When I hear something like that the instinctual thing for me is to want to ask the person making the statement, tell me something negative, or what are some of the problems you see in Hinduism (or whatever religion). If asked that question I can go on for a long time, and I don't even claim any religion. I mean just my spirituality. My dogma, if you will. I think it is very important to do that. If you read many of my posts you will see me saying, over and over again, that Israel is a word that means contending with God, and so preservation. I don't think, in fact I know through his word, the Bible, that God doesn't want us to blindly bow down to him. We have issues as imperfect and incomplete creatures, to work out with God himself, ourselves, and the world we live in. If we're not absolutely honest about that, right or wrong, I think we rob ourselves just as church can rob us.

 

[InChrist]

Okay. Fair enough. We disagree, although I don't actually respond to a person I respond to words, thoughts, data. And everything I say is my opinion. Nothing more than personal observation. I think church robs people of truth, spirituality, and teachings. Also, dogma robs people of debate. Don't question, don't criticize, don't learn. I'm not talking about whining, complaining and divisions. They also take money from the poor and give it to the rich. If the church is rich. All of that is a generalization based on real world data, but it doesn't mean it applies to all churches. Just like child molestation isn't practiced by all priests. Just as not all politicians are ignorant criminals and murderers. Just most of them.



You are the ones who should be at the fore, with the loudest voices, proclaiming, not what you feel or how wonderful your experience has been, but the truth because you are responsible for exposing the wrongs, not me. And the newcomer is responsible. When I studied with the JWs I liked the Awake magazine because it was a break from theology. One day I got one through the mail with rows of children who had died due to their ban on blood transfusions and I took it to my study conductor who was the Presiding Overseer of the congregation, a real nice guy who I had come to love like a father figure, and I said can you tell me for sure these children didn't die in vain. He and I both knew that his wife had died due to the ban on organ transplants, which was totally unsupported by scripture and they eventually had changed. It was too late for her. He sadly shook his head and said no. That was enough for me. That was the end of my studies. I couldn't condone that. Now, if you molest a child in the JW congregation you won't be disfellowshipped, but you will be disfellowshipped if you go to the police. They sweep it under the rug because even for years they exposed the Catholic church for the same, they don't want to bring reproach upon Jehovah. So, they are a shelter for child molesters. It's the law to report, and they say follow the law unless it interferes with God's law. Does it? Who were the prophets in ancient Israel exposing in God's religion upon the insistence of God himself? Often at the risk of their own lives. It's unfortunate if that offends you.

The reason for sweeping wrongdoing under the rug isn't the fear of bringing reproach upon God himself, but the God religion has become. Religion is the true God, in place of God himself.

You have definitely brought up some important points concerning abuse which takes place and is hidden in various religious groups. This is worse than monetary scams, in my opinion.

I really appreciate your final sentences…

“The reason for sweeping wrongdoing under the rug isn't the fear of bringing reproach upon God himself, but the God religion has become. Religion is the true God, in place of God himself.”

 

[I Am Hugh]

I'm sorry to hear that. Do you honestly believe that all those folks are intentionally trying to scam others?

Yes.

 

[an anarchist]

Oh look its another "I got hurt by my church" thread. How surprising.

Sorry, I'm not terminally online and also have not been on RF since 2012, so I didn't realize that the specific topic of church being a scam is perhaps talked about a lot.

But topics get recycled all the time as new people flow in and out and veteran members evolve their worldview.

So I'm not too concerned.

 

[Kathryn]

I know of some pastors who are struggling to get by and have second (and third) jobs in order to survive and feed their families, but I've also seen some in churches who made me immediately think, "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." It goes both ways.

I stand by what I said.

 

[Quintessence]

Sorry, I'm not terminally online and also have not been on RF since 2012, so I didn't realize that the specific topic of church being a scam is perhaps talked about a lot.

It's not - as far as I've noticed.

What does happen too much is toxicity and negativity. Just in general. About everything.

That thread I made about cool stuff your local churches have done in the community? I wasn't expecting a ton of responses - as a Pagan I don't really pay that much attention to what various Christian churches do either in my local area - but I wasn't expecting basically none. And that's not because beautiful things don't happen on the regular, it's because there's a toxicity and negativity problem in mainstream culture that becomes magnified in certain venues. I get that complaining is part of how humans bond, socially, and part of how they move past their own negativity. But too often this comes at the expense of saying and doing something positive and productive or counting one's blessings. Stay in the mire for too long and one should not be surprised when one is covered in muck.

 

[JustGeorge]

Okay. I'll take your word for that. I sort of think we all do; I just think they are personal responsibility, but used in that way it makes it sort of a misnomer. We are ultimately the authority regarding our own dogma.

Hm. Yes, I suppose that's a good point. In Hinduism, we generally refer to the personal responsibility as 'dharma'.

Very well. Good job.

Thanks!

When I hear something like that the instinctual thing for me is to want to ask the person making the statement, tell me something negative, or what are some of the problems you see in Hinduism (or whatever religion). If asked that question I can go on for a long time, and I don't even claim any religion. I mean just my spirituality.

Yeah, you can find flaws in any spirituality, and in any one person's spirituality(or lack of it). Everything's got issues.

The same goes for any ideal, or just about anything else, really.

My dogma, if you will. I think it is very important to do that. If you read many of my posts you will see me saying, over and over again, that Israel is a word that means contending with God, and so preservation. I don't think, in fact I know through his word, the Bible, that God doesn't want us to blindly bow down to him. We have issues as imperfect and incomplete creatures, to work out with God himself, ourselves, and the world we live in. If we're not absolutely honest about that, right or wrong, I think we rob ourselves just as church can rob us.

Fair enough.

 

[Madsaac]

Debate point: Generally speaking, are churches a scam?

My frame of reference is Christian churches in my part of USA.

I say yes, churches are a scam. From my experience, they promise blessings from God in return for tithes. I have sat through many sermons when I grew up Christian. Many of those sermons were dedicated to telling the congregation they needed to tithe more. Congregants were guaranteed God's blessing if they gave the church money, and conversely were guaranteed God's wrath if they didn't tithe properly. I've been to the Pastor's nice house paid for by the congregation. Seems like the church was funding his lax and comfortable lifestyle.

I understand that some churches do charitable work and tithes will go to that. But that is not the case, generally speaking (from my experience).

I also believe that people should be able to freely fund their place of worship.

Promising God's blessings in return for cash and guaranteeing God's wrath due to lack of tithing is the name of the game though. And it often ends up with the Pastor acquiring a nice car.

It's a big scam I say!

Why make this thread? To make a fuss for the sake of making a fuss? Partly... But also, I think it is important to call out scams. Church is a blatant scam that is protected by society.

Some are, like many types of organisations, there are always people who 'scam', how much who knows?

However, what makes in worse with churches is they do it under the guise of 'god'

Hypocrisy doesn't get bigger than this, maybe if you're a christian voting for the likes of Trump.