Genesis 3:16

[roger1440]

Right, not from Judaism. Except for Niddah 24b, where certain kinds of miscarriages are compared to Lilit, according to Rav Yehudah. Or a baraita in Eruvin 100b, where a woman's long hair is likened to that of Lilit. Or Shabbat 151b, where Rabbi Chanina warns about the danger of sleeping in a house alone being that one is vulnerable to Lilit. Or Bava Batra 73ab, where Rabbah speaks about seeing Hormin son of Lilit. Or in the midrash Alef-Bet d'Ben Sirach, which discusses Lilit a lot, and associates her explicitly with the first wife of Adam mentioned in Bere**** Rabbah. Or in the Zohar, where it likens her to a succubus. Or any of a hundred more minor Kabbalistic sefarim.

But, you know, it's not from Judaism....

Can you help me with some of these terms? Isn’t Midrash and Jewish Mysticism part of Judaism? Also, isn’t “Jewish folklore” part of Judaism?

 

[CMike]

Right, not from Judaism. Except for Niddah 24b, where certain kinds of miscarriages are compared to Lilit, according to Rav Yehudah. Or a baraita in Eruvin 100b, where a woman's long hair is likened to that of Lilit. Or Shabbat 151b, where Rabbi Chanina warns about the danger of sleeping in a house alone being that one is vulnerable to Lilit. Or Bava Batra 73ab, where Rabbah speaks about seeing Hormin son of Lilit. Or in the midrash Alef-Bet d'Ben Sirach, which discusses Lilit a lot, and associates her explicitly with the first wife of Adam mentioned in Bere**** Rabbah. Or in the Zohar, where it likens her to a succubus. Or any of a hundred more minor Kabbalistic sefarim.

But, you know, it's not from Judaism....

20. And the man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all life.

21. And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife shirts of skin, and He dressed them

Why don't you please quote from Genesis regarding Adam's "real" first wife?

Here is some help

Genesis - Chapter 3 (Parshah Berei****) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

I see the first wife must be the daughter of law of Rosana who was Adam's mother.:sarcastic

Maybe she was the great great great great grandmother of Adam's second child on his cousin's side. That could be the ticket too.)(

 

[CMike]

I suppose it would be if one read text in the most literalistic, rigid, simplistic way possible. Fortunately most people are not rabid fundamentalists.

Jews actually believe what is in the Torah...at least the ones who care about the Torah.

 

[Levite]

20. And the man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all life.

21. And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife shirts of skin, and He dressed them

Why don't you please quote from Genesis regarding Adam's "real" first wife?

Here is some help

Genesis - Chapter 3 (Parshah Berei****) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

I see the first wife must be the daughter of law of Rosana who was Adam's mother.:sarcastic

Maybe she was the great great great great grandmother of Adam's second child on his cousin's side. That could be the ticket too.)(

Sure, go ahead: cite Bere**** a few more times. Never mind what's in the Gemara, or in the Midrash, or in sifrei Kabbalah. I'm sure a few snarky comments will totally obviate the innumerable mentions of Lilit and liliyot in the last 2000 years of Jewish writing.

 

[roger1440]

In the 20th century Lilith has been resurrected in the form of the embodiment of Jewish women’s equal rights .

 

[CMike]

Sure, go ahead: cite Bere**** a few more times. Never mind what's in the Gemara, or in the Midrash, or in sifrei Kabbalah. I'm sure a few snarky comments will totally obviate the innumerable mentions of Lilit and liliyot in the last 2000 years of Jewish writing.

Yup, what does the Torah have to do with Judaism.:sarcastic

I heard Eve was on her third husband before she met Adam on a blind date.

 

[Levite]

Yup, what does the Torah have to do with Judaism.:sarcastic

I heard Eve was on her third husband before she met Adam on a blind date.

Aren't you supposed to be a frummer yid? How can you completely dismiss midrash and Kabbalah? How can you ignore something that's in the Gemara? You're treating this idea, that Chazal talked about, that gedolim of the Rishonim talked about, that's in the Zohar, that's in any number of books of Kabbalah and aggadot that many great rabbis for hundreds upon hundreds of years have used and referenced, and you're treating it like it's some innovation du jour of the modern far left or some strange syncretism no one's ever heard of before.

Nobody's questioning that it's not in the pshat of Bere****. But since when do we rely solely on pshat in our tradition? Are you a tzedoki?

 

[roger1440]

After the Holy One created the first human being, Adam, He said: “It is not good for Adam to be alone. ” He created a woman, also from the earth, and called her Lilith. They quarreled immediately. She said: “I will not lie below you.” He said, “I will not lie below you, but above you. For you are fit to be below me and I above you.” She responded: “We are both equal because we both come from the earth.” Neither listened to the other. When Lilith realized what was happening, she pronounced the Ineffable Name of God and flew off into the air. Adam rose in prayer before the Creator, saying, “The woman you gave me has fled from me.” Immediately the Holy One sent three angels after her. The Holy One said to Adam: “If she wants to return, all the better. If not, she will have to accept that one hundred of her children will die every day.” The angels went after her, finally locating her in the sea, in the powerful waters in which the Egyptians were destined to perish. They told her what God had said, and she did not want to return Alphabet of Ben Sira 23a-b - See more at: The Lilith Question | Lilith Magazine

 

[roger1440]

[youtube]LIQnybaN0co[/youtube]
Story Of Lilith - Succubus - YouTube

 

[Pegg]

Sure, go ahead: cite Bere**** a few more times. Never mind what's in the Gemara, or in the Midrash, or in sifrei Kabbalah. I'm sure a few snarky comments will totally obviate the innumerable mentions of Lilit and liliyot in the last 2000 years of Jewish writing.

but was lilit written about by Moses or any of the prophets commissioned by God who wrote the Hebrew scriptures?

 

[Levite]

but was lilit written about by Moses or any of the prophets commissioned by God who wrote the Hebrew scriptures?

There is a reference to liliyot (Lilith-type demons) in Isaiah. That's the only reference of anything like that in the Tanach. Basically, Lilith and her ilk are creatures of Midrash, not of the plain text of the Tanach.

 

[CMike]

After the Holy One created the first human being, Adam, He said: “It is not good for Adam to be alone. ” He created a woman, also from the earth, and called her Lilith. They quarreled immediately. She said: “I will not lie below you.” He said, “I will not lie below you, but above you. For you are fit to be below me and I above you.” She responded: “We are both equal because we both come from the earth.” Neither listened to the other. When Lilith realized what was happening, she pronounced the Ineffable Name of God and flew off into the air. Adam rose in prayer before the Creator, saying, “The woman you gave me has fled from me.” Immediately the Holy One sent three angels after her. The Holy One said to Adam: “If she wants to return, all the better. If not, she will have to accept that one hundred of her children will die every day.” The angels went after her, finally locating her in the sea, in the powerful waters in which the Egyptians were destined to perish. They told her what God had said, and she did not want to return Alphabet of Ben Sira 23a-b - See more at: The Lilith Question | Lilith Magazine

From the link.


Aviva Cantor-Zuckoff is a founding member of the LILITH Editorial Board, the Jewish Feminist Organization, and the Socialist Zionist Union.

It figures that the crazy radical feminists come up with this nonsense.

Probably the same ilk that created the goblet of water of Miriam for Passover:slap:

 

[RabbiO]

In your rush to judge, in your apparent inability to simply disagree without labeling others with terms you seem to think indicates how horrible they are - words like "liberal" or "secular"- you failed to discern that the story of Lilith as Adam's first wife did not originate with "crazy radical feminists" but comes, as Levite pointed out, from the Alef-Bet d'Ben Sira, a work that dates back to the 9th or 10th century C.E.

Peter

 

[CMike]

In your rush to judge, in your apparent inability to simply disagree without labeling others with terms you seem to think indicates how horrible they are - words like "liberal" or "secular"- you failed to discern that the story of Lilith as Adam's first wife did not originate with "crazy radical feminists" but comes, as Levite pointed out, from the Alef-Bet d'Ben Sira, a work that dates back to the 9th or 10th century C.E.

Peter

View Auction Listing - Sefer Aleph-bet de-Ben Sira

Aleph-bet de-Ben Sira is a narrative, satirical work, written probably in the geonic period in the East. The Alphabet of Ben Sira is one of the earliest, most complicated, and most sophisticated Hebrew stories written in the Middle Ages. Four versions of the work have been printed: (a) the usual text found in most editions and manuscripts, edited with notes by Steinschneider and published in Berlin in 1858; (b) a fuller version of part of the work that was discovered by Steinschneider in a manuscript in Leiden (parts of it were added as notes to his edition); (c) a totally different version printed by Loewinger and Friedman from a Kaufmann manuscript in Budapest, published in Vienna in 1926; and (d) part of a fourth version discovered by Habermann in a manuscript in Jerusalem and published in 1958. There are more than 50 extant manuscripts of the work, in full or in part, many of which contain different versions and additional stories.


I prefer serious stuff rather than the radical feminist version of things.

Adam's wife was Eve. Adam wasn't twice divorced with his grandpa being married to Eve's cousin.

It's totally rediculous.

 

[idea]

Man to rule over woman. How is this not sexist?

That depends on how you define "rule" and if you think it is good or bad to be a ruler...

The greatest among you shall be your servant.(New Testament | Matthew 23:11)

In some situations it is good to be a ruler (if the ruler is kind, just, honest, etc. etc.) In some situations it is good to be "with" rather than "in front of" others. It's all relative of coarse.

 

[Levite]

View Auction Listing - Sefer Aleph-bet de-Ben Sira

Aleph-bet de-Ben Sira is a narrative, satirical work, written probably in the geonic period in the East. The Alphabet of Ben Sira is one of the earliest, most complicated, and most sophisticated Hebrew stories written in the Middle Ages. Four versions of the work have been printed: (a) the usual text found in most editions and manuscripts, edited with notes by Steinschneider and published in Berlin in 1858; (b) a fuller version of part of the work that was discovered by Steinschneider in a manuscript in Leiden (parts of it were added as notes to his edition); (c) a totally different version printed by Loewinger and Friedman from a Kaufmann manuscript in Budapest, published in Vienna in 1926; and (d) part of a fourth version discovered by Habermann in a manuscript in Jerusalem and published in 1958. There are more than 50 extant manuscripts of the work, in full or in part, many of which contain different versions and additional stories.


I prefer serious stuff rather than the radical feminist version of things.

Adam's wife was Eve. Adam wasn't twice divorced with his grandpa being married to Eve's cousin.

It's totally rediculous.

The fact that Alef Bet d'Ben Sirach has satirical elements is irrelevant. It's a midrash. Lots of midrashim have satirical elements, doesn't make them less midrash.

Dismissing something which is present in midrash-- including, apparently, midrashim cited by Rabbanim in the Gemara-- as well as in Kabbalah as "radical feminism" is what is ridiculous. How can something that's been part of Jewish discussions of folklore for two thousand years be "radical feminism?" Just because a feminist magazine has taken the name in recent years? By that logic, if a feminist magazine took the name "Eliezer," then it would be "radical feminism" to say that Avraham Avinu had a servant named Eliezer, despite that being one of the classic midrashim from Bere**** Rabbah.

We all get that you're a misogynist and a hater of liberal Judaism-- that's yesterday's news, you don't have to repeat it. But there is simply nothing in Orthodoxy that I know of that demands that one deny the very existence of midrashim just because they happen to be employed by someone you disagree with. So on what basis are you doing so?

 

[RabbiO]

View Auction Listing - Sefer Aleph-bet de-Ben Sira

Aleph-bet de-Ben Sira is a narrative, satirical work, written probably in the geonic period in the East. The Alphabet of Ben Sira is one of the earliest, most complicated, and most sophisticated Hebrew stories written in the Middle Ages. Four versions of the work have been printed: (a) the usual text found in most editions and manuscripts, edited with notes by Steinschneider and published in Berlin in 1858; (b) a fuller version of part of the work that was discovered by Steinschneider in a manuscript in Leiden (parts of it were added as notes to his edition); (c) a totally different version printed by Loewinger and Friedman from a Kaufmann manuscript in Budapest, published in Vienna in 1926; and (d) part of a fourth version discovered by Habermann in a manuscript in Jerusalem and published in 1958. There are more than 50 extant manuscripts of the work, in full or in part, many of which contain different versions and additional stories.


I prefer serious stuff rather than the radical feminist version of things.

Adam's wife was Eve. Adam wasn't twice divorced with his grandpa being married to Eve's cousin.

It's totally rediculous.

CMike,

For the purposes of this I am not weighing in on the merit, or lack of merit, of the Alef-Bet d'Ben Sira. Nor am I weighing in, pro or con, on feminism, Jewish or otherwise.

What I am saying is that in a knee jerk reaction, because a version was printed in a feminist publication, you erroneously attributed the story of Lilith as Adam's first wife as obviously being the brainchild of Jewish feminists, when clearly it was not.

(If I had seen Levite's response I would have foregone my reply, but I didn't, so here it is.)

Peter

 

[CMike]

Is it any surprise that the person who wrote the article comes from

Aviva Cantor-Zuckoff is a founding member of the LILITH Editorial Board, the Jewish Feminist Organization, and the Socialist Zionist Union.?

And then you wonder why I say it comes from radical feminists.

The reason I state that fact is because it's true.

 

[CMike]

The fact that Alef Bet d'Ben Sirach has satirical elements is irrelevant. It's a midrash. Lots of midrashim have satirical elements, doesn't make them less midrash.

Dismissing something which is present in midrash-- including, apparently, midrashim cited by Rabbanim in the Gemara-- as well as in Kabbalah as "radical feminism" is what is ridiculous. How can something that's been part of Jewish discussions of folklore for two thousand years be "radical feminism?" Just because a feminist magazine has taken the name in recent years? By that logic, if a feminist magazine took the name "Eliezer," then it would be "radical feminism" to say that Avraham Avinu had a servant named Eliezer, despite that being one of the classic midrashim from Bere**** Rabbah.

We all get that you're a misogynist and a hater of liberal Judaism-- that's yesterday's news, you don't have to repeat it. But there is simply nothing in Orthodoxy that I know of that demands that one deny the very existence of midrashim just because they happen to be employed by someone you disagree with. So on what basis are you doing so?

Adam didn't have a first wife before Eve.

I find it insulting how the radical feminists change the Torah in order to make the Torah fit their beliefs.

It's very similar to christians who insert jesus within the Torah where he doesn't exist.

And no I don't hate liberal judaism. I don't like the attacks and twisting of the Torah to fit the agenda.

 

[CMike]

The fact that Alef Bet d'Ben Sirach has satirical elements is irrelevant. It's a midrash. Lots of midrashim have satirical elements, doesn't make them less midrash.

Dismissing something which is present in midrash-- including, apparently, midrashim cited by Rabbanim in the Gemara-- as well as in Kabbalah as "radical feminism" is what is ridiculous. How can something that's been part of Jewish discussions of folklore for two thousand years be "radical feminism?" Just because a feminist magazine has taken the name in recent years? By that logic, if a feminist magazine took the name "Eliezer," then it would be "radical feminism" to say that Avraham Avinu had a servant named Eliezer, despite that being one of the classic midrashim from Bere**** Rabbah.

We all get that you're a misogynist and a hater of liberal Judaism-- that's yesterday's news, you don't have to repeat it. But there is simply nothing in Orthodoxy that I know of that demands that one deny the very existence of midrashim just because they happen to be employed by someone you disagree with. So on what basis are you doing so?

Where do midrashim have satirical elements?

I can't recall any doing so.

Also the middle ages didn't take place 2,000 years ago when that book was composed.