Genesis 3:16

[CMike]

Back in my younger days I read a science fiction book called, "Sex and the High Command" by John Boyd. To make a long story short, science came up with a drug that when taken by women caused them to spontaneously become pregnant with a girl child and they no longer needed men to reproduce their kind. The story ended with the male side of the human species becoming extinct. That book along with my background in science caused me to become interested in what is generally considered the "Feminist Movement" and to take that movement seriously. Which is why I find this topic, "Genesis 3:16" and "Isn't that sexist?" interesting. And now that Lilith has surfaced in this topic things are very interesting because there is absolutely nothing "nice" written about her and with her being associated with the "Feminist movement" there is no good that can come from it relative to the harmony between men and women.

Genesis 3:16 is sexist, especially if the decisions that men make and the actions that men take, upset women. And all religions that worship a male deity consider women secondary to men and sometimes even inferior. This attitude in the religions that worship the Father is in today's world creating a schism between men and women that in my opinion needs to be taken seriously and Genesis 3:16 is a foundation scripture for that attitude. There is in today's world a war going on both internally and externally in the religions that worship the Father and in the middle of this war is a war between the sexes. And this war between the sexes could end up eliminating those religions that worship the Father because the women that are a part of those religions are fed up and tired of the whole thing. And now enter Lilith, the goddess of a world with no men in it. This topic as presented relative to religion really does need to be discussed, in my opinion, as one that does worship the Father and also as one who is of the male persuasion.

In judaism we learn that women were given more wisdom than men were given.

Also, women have certain advantanges over men. For example, women can demand sex from the husbands, whereas men can't demand sex from women.

I"m not sure if you met many religious jewish women, but I can tell you they are hardly submissive. They can very bossy.

In Genesis G-D put men in charge of the household, however, women are responsible for the home.

 

[roger1440]

No.

It's concocted by radical feminists and supported by left wing jews.

They found the tale that was created in a book written in the middle ages that was discredited by the Jews' sages. The great Rambam called the book "a waste of time".

There is nothing to it.

Read the story of Genesis. The story of Adam and Eve is pretty clear. Notice there is no first wife before Eve in the Genesis story.

In fact, it is stated why G-D created Eve. Adam needed a helper and companion and Eve was created.

Maybe Moses forgot to mention Lilith in Genesis. Lets face it, he was a pretty busy guy at the time.

 

[CMike]

Maybe Moses forgot to mention Lilith in Genesis. Lets face it, he was a pretty busy guy at the time.

Could be. He had a lot on his mind.

Actually we just went through these passages in synagogue today. Every year we go through the whole torah.

This Shabbos we started from the beginning.

 

[roger1440]

Could be. He had a lot on his mind.

Actually we just went through these passages in synagogue today. Every year we go through the whole torah.

This Shabbos we started from the beginning.

Ok, I'll bite. What does it mean?

 

[CMike]

Ok, I'll bite. What does it mean?

According to the Ramban, Eve influenced her husband to eat the apple. Therefore, now women will be subservient to the husband. The husband will be in charge of the household.

Also, men were given the task of hard labor to gain food and such. Since women are physically weaker they will be dependent on men.

However....when women follow the Torah they become the "crown of her husband and pearl of his life," that's in Proverbs 12:4

Men are supposed to honor their wives more than themselves. He should be generous with money and not cause her fear. He shouldn't show anger toward her.

Wifes should also honor their husband and not do stuff repugnant to him.

As a side note there was a good sermon by the Rabbi in my synagoge yesterday.

The question is why does it start off with "Let there be light"?

It doesn't follow logical sequence. G-D follows the creation of light with seperating the seas, and the heaven, etc. Light wasn't needed for that.

The sermon stated that G-D started off with the overall plan. That the earth and the people of the earth should have a spiritual light to serve G-D and get close to him.

I thought that was very interesting.

Also, another point is that the Torah isn't a history book, so why does it start it out with G-D saying he created the world ? Why not start out with commandments?

One explanation is that the Torah is the journey of the jewish people ending in coming to the land of Israel.

So G-D is starting off by saying he created the world, and it's his to give as he chooses, or to take away as he chooses.

 

[mystic64]

In judaism we learn that women were given more wisdom than men were given.

Also, women have certain advantanges over men. For example, women can demand sex from the husbands, whereas men can't demand sex from women.

I"m not sure if you met many religious jewish women, but I can tell you they are hardly submissive. They can very bossy.

In Genesis G-D put men in charge of the household, however, women are responsible for the home.

CMike, over the years I have had both Jewish men and women as friends and yes I do agree that some Jewish women can be a handful, which is why I find the invoking of Lilith in the Jewish feminine movement interesting. There are entities out there, whether anyone wishes to believe in them or not, that can be channeled and used as a source of power against others. And Lilith is one of those entities. The odds are that your Jewish feminists can't do this and the odds are that they do not actually consider Lilith real either. So all is well. Now with that said, if you were to meet a woman that can channel Lilith, then you as a man would have no defense against her unless God personally steps in and says, "No." In the presence of a women that is channeling Lilith (whether she is aware of it or not) your sanity will slowly start to become unraveled and the only thing that you can do to save your sanity is to just turn away and walk off. This is why I find the quoted words of Lilith, as an excuse against men, showing up in a Jewish feminine movement, interesting. Because, if the entity Lilith is also present or becomes present, then the Jewish feminine movement will become a force that only other Jewish women can deal with. No man will be able to.

In my opinion Lilith belongs in this topic, that she is real, and that she is a force to be reckoned with, however it is that she came to be. She was the first woman to object to "man's" rule over "woman" and she is in today's world still a part of that battle.

 

[mystic64]

I am intrigued by the weight given to Jewish myth and legend.

Does God make imperfect junk? If Lilith was a first wife for Adam and she was some sort of rebellious cow, then that would make sin enter into the world without even touching the forbidden fruit, which was the only cause of death and the beginning of sin. No rebel is mentioned in the Bible before God created Eve.

Isaiah 34:14 from the Orthodox Jewish Bible.....

"The tziyyim (martens) shall also encounter iyyim (wild cats), and a sa’ir (wild goat) calls to its companion, and lilit (night creature) dwells there and finds for itself a mano’ach (place of rest)."

This mentions lilit only as "a night creature".

Youngs Literal Translation renders it "And met have Ziim with Aiim, And the goat for its companion calleth, Only there rested hath the night-owl, And hath found for herself a place of rest."

A 'night-owl' or a 'nightjar' is reference to a nocturnal bird.

If this embellished, mythological character is not spoken about in sacred scripture as anything but a bird or nocturnal creature, then myth is all she is.

Lilith actually does not have anything to do with the "first sin". The "first sin" involves only the offspring of Adam and Eve and the part of their line that was continued by Noah and his family after the flood. Technically Lilith like Satan is considered a tangle foot in the grand scheme of things and not a cause. Technically they would not have an effect on mankind if Adam had supervised Eve like he was suppose to.

 

[CMike]

CMike, over the years I have had both Jewish men and women as friends and yes I do agree that some Jewish women can be a handful, which is why I find the invoking of Lilith in the Jewish feminine movement interesting. There are entities out there, whether anyone wishes to believe in them or not, that can be channeled and used as a source of power against others. And Lilith is one of those entities. The odds are that your Jewish feminists can't do this and the odds are that they do not actually consider Lilith real either. So all is well. Now with that said, if you were to meet a woman that can channel Lilith, then you as a man would have no defense against her unless God personally steps in and says, "No." In the presence of a women that is channeling Lilith (whether she is aware of it or not) your sanity will slowly start to become unraveled and the only thing that you can do to save your sanity is to just turn away and walk off. This is why I find the quoted words of Lilith, as an excuse against men, showing up in a Jewish feminine movement, interesting. Because, if the entity Lilith is also present or becomes present, then the Jewish feminine movement will become a force that only other Jewish women can deal with. No man will be able to.

In my opinion Lilith belongs in this topic, that she is real, and that she is a force to be reckoned with, however it is that she came to be. She was the first woman to object to "man's" rule over "woman" and she is in today's world still a part of that battle.

I don't understand what you are saying.

The problem is that Lilith as Adam's "first wife" isn't part of judaism/the Torah.

 

[mystic64]

I don't understand what you are saying.

The problem is that Lilith as Adam's "first wife" isn't part of judaism/the Torah.

That is because Judaism and the Torah are about the history of God's relationship with Adam and Eve and the part of their line that was continued by Noah and his family after the "Flood". Lilith is from the days before the "Flood" and she has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism and the torah or the history of God's relationship with Adam and Eve and the part of their line that was continued after the "Flood". And if the truth were known Lilith is probably also a part of the reason that the "Flood" happened in the first place and apparently she could swim, in some sense of the word swim.

And also just for the sake of discussion and please correct me if I am wrong, written ancient Hebrew was written in consonants and did not contained any vowels. So, the only way that a word that was written in ancient Hebrew can truly be defined is by exploring how it was used in context with other words. If a series of consonants are associated with two different meanings relative to context, then which meaning that is to be used with a give sequence of consonants is up for question, if the meaning is not clearly defined by context because the meaning of a word is defined by the vowels and their placement in the word. Originally written ancient Hebrew was to assist the memory of knowledge that was passed down by word of mouth from generation to generation. Somewhere along the line the word of mouth part was lost which has resulted in some very heated debates on how ancient written Hebrew should be translated.

 

[Harmonious]

No.

It's concocted by radical feminists and supported by left wing jews.

They found the tale that was created in a book written in the middle ages that was discredited by the Jews' sages. The great Rambam called the book "a waste of time".

There is nothing to it.

Read the story of Genesis. The story of Adam and Eve is pretty clear. Notice there is no first wife before Eve in the Genesis story.

In fact, it is stated why G-D created Eve. Adam needed a helper and companion and Eve was created.

No, Mike. As Levite pointed out many times (and was supported by Jay and RabbiO, among others), the concept of Lilit IS part of Jewish legend, from ancient sources.

The fact that it was CO-OPTED by "radical leftist feminist Jews" doesn't take away from the fact that it was initially part of Jewish legend.

There are mystical customs, usually Sephardic customs, before a baby boy's circumcision that are geared to protect against damage from Lilit. I can PROMISE you they have nothing to do with the magazine and movement you are referencing.

Lilit is a legend of Jewish folklore. She is most commonly epitomized as a demon who steals Jewish children's souls, and therefore children have to be especially protected.

There is a LOT to the legend.

You are right to protest that it isn't a BIG part of Jewish tradition, but to completely ignore the Talmud, and Medrash, and the Zohar is incorrect procedure to determine whether something is, in fact, authentically Jewish.

The fact that it isn't as big a part of tradition as the magazine would have some believe is another thing altogether.

 

[Harmonious]

Ok, I'll bite. What does it mean?

Every year, Jews read Genesis through Deuteronomy, a section each week. We complete the cycle once a year, and yesterday, we started the cycle over again with Genesis 1:1.

 

[CMike]

No, Mike. As Levite pointed out many times (and was supported by Jay and RabbiO, among others), the concept of Lilit IS part of Jewish legend, from ancient sources.

The fact that it was CO-OPTED by "radical leftist feminist Jews" doesn't take away from the fact that it was initially part of Jewish legend.

There are mystical customs, usually Sephardic customs, before a baby boy's circumcision that are geared to protect against damage from Lilit. I can PROMISE you they have nothing to do with the magazine and movement you are referencing.

Lilit is a legend of Jewish folklore. She is most commonly epitomized as a demon who steals Jewish children's souls, and therefore children have to be especially protected.

There is a LOT to the legend.

You are right to protest that it isn't a BIG part of Jewish tradition, but to completely ignore the Talmud, and Medrash, and the Zohar is incorrect procedure to determine whether something is, in fact, authentically Jewish.

The fact that it isn't as big a part of tradition as the magazine would have some believe is another thing altogether.

It's not in the medrish Talmud or Zohar.

It's nonsense created by the radical feminists.

They found it in a book that the Rambam called a "waste of time", and pounced on it to furtheir their agenda.

There are plenty of jewish heroines, i.e. Devorah, Yael, Sarah, Miriam etc..

However, I find coming up with nonsense to further a political agenda by trying to alter the Torah offensive.

Once, again here is Genesis, please copy and paste that states, infers, or implies that G-D created a wife before Eve for Adam.

Genesis - Chapter 2 (Parshah Berei****) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

In fact, G-D states that he created Eve because "18. And the Lord God said, "It is not good that man is alone; I shall make him a helpmate opposite him."

So let's see it. Where is this great feminist power Lilith that was created before Eve? If it's there you can quote it.

BTW Talmud, and Medrish, is all based on the five book of Moses. So once again please copy and paste it from Bere**** and I will believe it.

 

[roger1440]

Every year, Jews read Genesis through Deuteronomy, a section each week. We complete the cycle once a year, and yesterday, we started the cycle over again with Genesis 1:1.

Is there a word or phrase for that? Or is it simply called Bible study or Torah study?

 

[CMike]

Is there a word or phrase for that? Or is it simply called Bible study or Torah study?

Torah reading.

The highlight of the shabbat service is the Torah reading.

The entire Torah (five books of moses) is broken up so it can be completed in one year.

Seven people are called up to read a portion of the Torah during the Sabbath services. The Torah scrolls don't have vowels so it's hard to read without a lot of learning. Usually a person called a Bal Kora reads on behalf of each person.

Usually when the person is reading the Torah portion you follow along in your bible. I usually read the english and the commentaries. I also read it before the service so I am prepared.

After the Torah readings, a portion from prophets is read that usually corresponds with the theme of the Torah portion that is read.

Also, the sermon is usually based on the lessons that we learn from the Torah portion of that week.

The link below gives the breakup of the Torah for the specific shabbos if you look below.

Reading the Torah

We just finished the holiday of Simchat Torah, which is a holiday to celebrate the reading of the entire Torah. It's a celebration.

This last shabbos (saturday) we started from the very beginning, the first chapter in Genesis.

Next week we will be reading the portion called Noach. Two guesses what it is about.

Below is an example of how we study.

Once you go the link click on Parshah in a Nutshell. You can also click on Parshah (chapter) columnists who write a commentary on the the Torah portion.

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/default_cdo/jewish/Torah-Portion.htm

 

[Levite]

It's not in the medrish Talmud or Zohar.

Except for where it is.

But other than those places, it's totally not in the Midrash, Talmud, or Zohar.

 

[roger1440]

It's not in the medrish Talmud or Zohar.

It's nonsense created by the radical feminists.

They found it in a book that the Rambam called a "waste of time", and pounced on it to furtheir their agenda.

There are plenty of jewish heroines, i.e. Devorah, Yael, Sarah, Miriam etc..

However, I find coming up with nonsense to further a political agenda by trying to alter the Torah offensive.

Once, again here is Genesis, please copy and paste that states, infers, or implies that G-D created a wife before Eve for Adam.

Genesis - Chapter 2 (Parshah Berei****) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

In fact, G-D states that he created Eve because "18. And the Lord God said, "It is not good that man is alone; I shall make him a helpmate opposite him."

So let's see it. Where is this great feminist power Lilith that was created before Eve? If it's there you can quote it.

BTW Talmud, and Medrish, is all based on the five book of Moses. So once again please copy and paste it from Bere**** and I will believe it.

Direct Talmudic References

b. Erubin 18b

Rabbi Jeremia ben Eleazar said, "During those years (after their expulsion from the Garden), in which Adam, the first man, was separated from Eve, he became the father of ghouls and demons and lilin." Rabbi Meir said, "Adam, the first man, being very pious and finding that he had caused death to come into the world, sat fasting for 130 years, and separated himself from his wife for 130 years, and wore fig vines for 130 years. His fathering of evil spirits, referred to here, came as a result of wet dreams. b. Erubin 100b

Lilith grows long hair. b. Nidda 24b

Lilith is a demoness with a human appearance except that she has wings. b. Shab. 151b

Rabbi Hanina said, "One may not sleep alone in a house, for Lilith takes hold of whoever sleeps alone in a house." b. Baba Bathra 73a-b

Rabba bar bar Hana said, "I once saw Hormin, a son of Lilith, running on the battlements of Mahoza.... When the demonic government heard of it, they killed him [for showing himself]." Talmud citations are informed by the translations of I. Epstein. (The Babylonian Talmud. London: Socino Press, 1978) and Raphael Patai, Patai81, pp. 184f.).

Direct Talmudic References

 

[CMike]

I wrote this numerous times already.

What was concocted by the radical feminists is that Adam had a wife before Eve, who was the poster girl for female equality.

I did not say she wasn't mentioned at all.

 

[mystic64]

A question concerning Lilith

In Christianity, which is an offshoot of Judaism and we both worship the same God, any Christian feminist movement that invoked Lilith would no longer be considered Christian because Lilith is generally considered a demon that is anti God. My question is, "Why is this not so in Judaism?" In Judaism isn't there also rules against that? Genesis 3:16 could be considered sexist and Lilith could be considered the first feminist but there is no way that Lilith is Jewish and based on what is written about her she is also anti God. Just out of curiosity, how can a Jewish feminist movement invoke Lilith and still be considered Jewish? There are a lot of examples of God getting upset because of folks doing things that are similar to what the Jewish feminist movement is doing, why is what they are doing, different this time?

 

[dantech]

A question concerning Lilith

In Christianity, which is an offshoot of Judaism and we both worship the same God, any Christian feminist movement that invoked Lilith would no longer be considered Christian because Lilith is generally considered a demon that is anti God. My question is, "Why is this not so in Judaism?" In Judaism isn't there also rules against that? Genesis 3:16 could be considered sexist and Lilith could be considered the first feminist but there is no way that Lilith is Jewish and based on what is written about her she is also anti God. Just out of curiosity, how can a Jewish feminist movement invoke Lilith and still be considered Jewish? There are a lot of examples of God getting upset because of folks doing things that are similar to what the Jewish feminist movement is doing, why is what they are doing, different this time?

According to Jewish Laws, no matter what happens, you cannot renounce your Judaism.

 

[crossfire]

I can relate to Lilith. It can be frustrating being viewed as a sex object. Even more frustrating when they won't take no for an answer. When the frontal lobes are incapacitated by lust, reason has little chance of working, and you sometimes have to get a little nasty to get your point acrossed. Otherwise, if you try to be nice about it, you just might find yourself ravished against your will. Then you get blamed for it. Yeah, like that makes a lot of sense.

Here's a recent example:

Rape victim suing Lynnwood police | HeraldNet.com - Local news

With the percentage of women who have been raped during their lifetime, and the number of men who admit to rape, and the tendency to just dismiss such, or even perform "honor killings" to dispel this haunting reality, I can see why someone tuning into this collective unconscious aspect would see it as being nasty. Lilith has to be nasty as long as "No!" is not respected. Lilith wouldn't have to be anywhere near as nasty if "No!" was respected.