Genesis 3:16

[dantech]

One authority expressing dislike of a book doesn't universally and completely discredit it. Regardless of who that authority might be.

Yeah CMike only wears the Rabeinu Tam Tefilin. His grandfather's were discredited, weren't they?

Then there's the Gaon of Vilna who decided it's not obligated to wear the Rabeinu Tam ones, yet the Arizal decided it's obligated to wear both.

So which is it? Do you wear one pair? Two pairs? Either way, you're going against at least one authorative figure who discredited either one or both...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would ask JOFA ...

 

[CMike]

Yup, Rambam was the only one who thought it was book of nonsense.:areyoucra

Ben Sira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The legend is brought in the apocryphal and (semi-)heretical work the Alphabet of Sirach. The Rambam and others have ridiculed such writings as a waste of time[citation needed], but other Rishonim did mention it, if only skeptically or as a point in argument.

 

[CMike]

I would ask JOFA ...

They are my go to source of information right after Alphabat Ben Sira :drool:

 

[Levite]

Yup, Rambam was the only one who thought it was book of nonsense.:areyoucra

Ben Sira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The legend is brought in the apocryphal and (semi-)heretical work the Alphabet of Sirach. The Rambam and others have ridiculed such writings as a waste of time[citation needed], but other Rishonim did mention it, if only skeptically or as a point in argument.

Other Rishonim who were rationalists.

Rambam derided all mysticism and Kabbalah. He wasn't being specific. He said similar things about Sefer Yetzirah and what may have been Sefer ha-Bahir, and about various other Kabbalistic works, too. His followers and fellow rationalists shared his distaste. On the other hand, the Ravad, the Baal ha-SMaG, Ramban, and many others felt differently.

Much of our medieval period was taken up by the divisions between mystics and rationalists: finding rationalists who deride mystical midrash is nothing unique or exciting, and proves nothing except what side of the divide they fell on.

 

[CMike]

You sure?

http://koshertorah.com/PDF/rambam.pdf

 

[Athan]

Man to rule over woman. How is this not sexist?

This is how I view it: If I get an idea for my family that I believe is right or I believe came from above, I run it past my wife. If she initially agrees, then we do it. If she doesn't agree initially then we discuss. If she's still skeptical then we have to determine the source of my idea. Is it right and/or did it truly come from above, or is it something that needed more thought put into it, or does it simply need to be scrapped altogether? If it's the latter choices, then I get shutdown.

 

[Levite]

You sure?

http://koshertorah.com/PDF/rambam.pdf

Yeah, I'm sure. Especially considering that the Zohar hadn't yet been written when Rambam was alive, so he couldn't have seen it. That site is completely ahistorical in perspective.

 

[roger1440]

“And to the woman He said, "I will make most severe Your pangs in childbearing; In pain shall you bear children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."” (Gen. 3:16)

The last line of this verse has two keys words. The words “urge” and “rule”. The more we have an urge for something, the more that something has control over us. A good example would be a drug addict. The more the addict desires the drug, the more the drug rules the addict’s life. Keep in mind, the drug is passive not active. The drug does nothing on its own to control the addict’s life. It’s all on the addict.

Another way to look at desire is separation or division. We cannot desire something we already have. We must reach out and grasp it. It is something beyond us.

H8669
תּשׁוּקה
teshûqâh
tesh-oo-kaw'
From H7783 in the original sense of stretching out after; a longing: - desire.

 

[CMike]

Yeah, I'm sure. Especially considering that the Zohar hadn't yet been written when Rambam was alive, so he couldn't have seen it. That site is completely ahistorical in perspective.

Want to think about it some more?

Attitudes of the Kabbalists and Hasidim towards Maimonides

 

[roger1440]

In essence, man’s rule over women is given to them by women. It is not taken.

 

[crossfire]

“And to the woman He said, "I will make most severe Your pangs in childbearing; In pain shall you bear children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."” (Gen. 3:16)

The last line of this verse has two keys words. The words “urge” and “rule”. The more we have an urge for something, the more that something has control over us. A good example would be a drug addict. The more the addict desires the drug, the more the drug rules the addict’s life. Keep in mind, the drug is passive not active. The drug does nothing on its own to control the addict’s life. It’s all on the addict.

Another way to look at desire is separation or division. We cannot desire something we already have. We must reach out and grasp it. It is something beyond us.

H8669
תּשׁוּקה
teshûqâh
tesh-oo-kaw'
From H7783 in the original sense of stretching out after; a longing: - desire.

That's what I said several pages back:

Back to Genesis 3:16

16 He said to the woman:

I will intensify your labor pains;
you will bear children in anguish.​

Nasty ol' hormones!

Eve's desires would dominate her mind.

I think everyone can relate to how drugs will dominate a drug addict's life as an extreme example how a person can be dominated by their desires.

Now, playing Lilith's advocate here, the green part highlighted above would mean, "men are like crack!"

However, I say , "men are not like crack. They are sentient beings."

{Interesting how the same word we use for "pharmacy" means "practice of spiritism" in the bible}

 

[CMike]

Yeah, I'm sure. Especially considering that the Zohar hadn't yet been written when Rambam was alive, so he couldn't have seen it. That site is completely ahistorical in perspective.

Want to do some more thinking about it?

The Rambam and Kabbalah Video by Rabbi Chaim Miller

 

[Levite]

Want to do some more thinking about it?

The Rambam and Kabbalah Video by Rabbi Chaim Miller

This is not evidence of anything: this is a modern Chabad scholar reading Kabbalists who lived long, long after Rambam's time, who are attempting to read back into Rambam an affinity for mysticism that isn't there. He admits himself that what he is teaching is a Chabad synthesis of Rambam and Lurianic Kabbalah in order to understand it today.

This demonstrates nothing but the wishful thinking common in our Rabbinic tradition to try and depict all former generations as either reconciled with one another or somehow conforming to our expectations of them.

Want to think about it some more?

Attitudes of the Kabbalists and Hasidim towards Maimonides

This is, shockingly, actually a rather interesting piece, though a bit dated. However, it is not relevant: it describes the attitudes of Kabbalists from the sixteenth century onward, and Chasidim (even later, of course).

The divisions between rationalists and mystics were largely over by then: mysticism had won out. The quick and universal popularity of the Zohar upon its release probably was the deciding factor, but it was largely over by the end of the fifteenth century.

You may wish to consult resources like Maimonides' Confrontation with Mysticism, by Menachem Kellner, or Without Red Strings or Holy Water: Maimonides' Mishne Torah, by H. Norman Strickman, for more reliable historically critical information about Rambam, rationalism, and mysticism.

 

[CMike]

Figures.

 

[mystic64]

Or, you are a Ben Noach.

Thank you very much Dantech!

Quote Wikipedia:
In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), or the Noahide Laws, are a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God[1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humanity.[2][3]
According to Judaism, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the World to Come (Hebrew: עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[4][5] Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides," and may sometimes network in Jewish synagogues.[citation needed]
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:[6]

1. The prohibition of Idolatry.
2. The prohibition of Murder.
3. The prohibition of Theft.
4. The prohibition of Sexual immorality.
5. The prohibition of Blasphemy.
6. The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.

The Noahide laws comprise the six commandments which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[7] and a seventh precept, which was added after the Flood of Noah. According to Judaism, the 613 commandments given in the written Torah, as well as their explanations and applications discussed in the oral Torah, are applicable to the Jews only, and non-Jews are bound only to observe the seven Noahide laws.


That is me I do fit somewhere1 Too cool!

 

[roger1440]

That's what I said several pages back:

Yeah, but I say it gooder

 

[CMike]

Other Rishonim who were rationalists.

Rambam derided all mysticism and Kabbalah. He wasn't being specific. He said similar things about Sefer Yetzirah and what may have been Sefer ha-Bahir, and about various other Kabbalistic works, too. His followers and fellow rationalists shared his distaste. On the other hand, the Ravad, the Baal ha-SMaG, Ramban, and many others felt differently.

.

And your proof that that they endorsed the Alphabet Ben Sira is?

 

[CMike]

Thank you very much Dantech!

Quote Wikipedia:
In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), or the Noahide Laws, are a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God[1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humanity.[2][3]
According to Judaism, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the World to Come (Hebrew: עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[4][5] Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides," and may sometimes network in Jewish synagogues.[citation needed]
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:[6]

1. The prohibition of Idolatry.
2. The prohibition of Murder.
3. The prohibition of Theft.
4. The prohibition of Sexual immorality.
5. The prohibition of Blasphemy.
6. The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.

The Noahide laws comprise the six commandments which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[7] and a seventh precept, which was added after the Flood of Noah. According to Judaism, the 613 commandments given in the written Torah, as well as their explanations and applications discussed in the oral Torah, are applicable to the Jews only, and non-Jews are bound only to observe the seven Noahide laws.


That is me I do fit somewhere1 Too cool!

I can't believe Wikipedia actually got something right concerning judaism.

 

[dantech]

Thank you very much Dantech!

Quote Wikipedia:
In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), or the Noahide Laws, are a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God[1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humanity.[2][3]
According to Judaism, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the World to Come (Hebrew: עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[4][5] Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides," and may sometimes network in Jewish synagogues.[citation needed]
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:[6]

1. The prohibition of Idolatry.
2. The prohibition of Murder.
3. The prohibition of Theft.
4. The prohibition of Sexual immorality.
5. The prohibition of Blasphemy.
6. The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.

The Noahide laws comprise the six commandments which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[7] and a seventh precept, which was added after the Flood of Noah. According to Judaism, the 613 commandments given in the written Torah, as well as their explanations and applications discussed in the oral Torah, are applicable to the Jews only, and non-Jews are bound only to observe the seven Noahide laws.


That is me I do fit somewhere1 Too cool!

You're very welcome sir.