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Genesis: A Literary Whole

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I was kindly asked to write about how I interpret the Genesis story...to what extent literal or figurative. I will try to briefly address this request and hopefully I will also be able to consolidate some of what I've learned in recent years as I have slowly moved from Chapter 1 to 36 in my study.

The title of the thread is my attempt to capture the main way in which I seem to be approaching my understanding of Genesis. Genesis and the Bible is a work of literature. I don't mean to say that at the outset the whole of the Bible is an invention without reference to reality. On the contrary I would say that in spite of the ambiguity and strong likelihood that its historical accuracy is questionable, it is most importantly about the reality of human experience in the world that a people who had come to believe in a unique God. Like any work of literature, if it were merely the invention of the imagination, its relationship to the reality of the reader might be so random as to annoy and put off the reader. But the Bible is anything but that although the distance of the original audience in time and even cultural reality can have the same impact on today's reader.

Now the Bible can be read as literature without also being dismissed as a basis of faith. Although reading the Bible as literature may challenge some of the as to the literalistic and perfect nature of the Word, I think that many will understand that its authors, although divinely inspired, still expressed God's truth partly from their own perspective. My hope is that by reading it as literature in a public context, both believers who want to understand the beauty, truth and original intent of its authors will have much common ground with atheists who want to do the same. Although atheists might approach the Bible as literature from a highly skeptical view as to its virtue, they can be asked to treat it as literature and take it at face value as a serious work and one often understood as deeply influential in the history of literature. In fact, more and more non-believers these days have taken up noteworthy careers in a study of the Bible simply because they see in it an opportunity to explore a great work of literature. Each line and each story in Genesis is part of a greater whole that was intentionally crafted by its authors in an effort to capture reality and the God of that reality.

In my own study I have found that the authors of Genesis should be seen as having consciously molded the story using motifs that repeat themselves in ever evolving and shifting ways. When one follows the motifs and sees how they are varied, you get the impression that the truth these stories are describing is never fully understood from just one perspective. You must take the whole evolution of the motif in hand to understand the whole of the spiritual truth that the Bible is trying to convey. The effect of such a structure of story is to invite interpretation and to provoke the individual to draw from their own personal experience in order to clarify the intentional ambiguities in the stories and across the stories. in other words, the Bible is a work of literature designed to invite participation from its audience through the intentional use of ambiguity and variety of perspective. As such the characters in the story, including God, do not have a neat, unambiguous description. The original audience as much as any later audience must bring to the story their own understanding and in a community effort discuss and learn about the subtleties and deep truths that are revealed when scripture is sincerely discussed together.

I also see Genesis as having been deeply inspired by other mythic and epic works from other cultures. I believe that modern scholarship is helping to show that the Bible was written from both local and foreign influences and that these influences were available to the authors through the cultures that the Jews were inundated by. Having been so often inundated yet cohesive enough to persist, the Jews became adept at survival within a more economically and militarily stronger conqueror. I have read some from other mythic and epic stories and have found either the direct or the shared influence between the Bible and these other works. Most notably I see a deep similarity in a shared cluster of motifs between Genesis and the Mahabharata. This goes beyond a sort the idea of shared motifs across stories due to human psychology. There are too many superficial complex similarities to see this as merely an unconscious similarity. If I ever decide to "go back to school" and get my PhD, I will probably aim at doing a thesis on this similarity and attempt to bring to light this deep similarity between these two stories. Currently my knowledge of the Mahabharata is relatively superficial and I am making the effort now to correct that.

Anyway this is a summary of my view on the understanding and interpretation of Genesis. Any questions, comments and thoughts are welcome.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The Bible is a literary masterpiece.

Each line and each story in Genesis is part of a greater whole that was intentionally crafted by its authors in an effort to capture reality and the God of that reality.

It is in this way that the Bible is truth, as each relates to and has its purpose towards the whole. Gen, final redaction during the Exile, provides the background for the formation of God's people in Exodus.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Each line and each story in Genesis is part of a greater whole that was intentionally crafted by its authors in an effort to capture reality and the God of that reality.
There is at least some evidence that suggests that what we call "Genesis" is a composition of various authors, probably with different agendas, plus there are variations of some of the same narratives. Therefore, I tend not to feel it is that organized with the possible exception of the "editor(s)" that put the pieces together.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
There is at least some evidence that suggests that what we call "Genesis" is a composition of various authors, probably with different agendas, plus there are variations of some of the same narratives. Therefore, I tend not to feel it is that organized with the possible exception of the "editor(s)" that put the pieces together.

Yes. I have been acquainted with the various "Hypotheses" developed to understand the source(s) for the material in the Pentateuch at a very introductory level. And I might be working on my own (non-exclusive) hypothesis regarding the shared story structure between the Mahabharata and Genesis...

I have been watching a much appreciated Indian TV series adaptation of the Mahabharata recently. I was pleasantly surprised when it came to a certain story of how Arjuna won the hand of his wife Draupadi. All of the sudden I felt like I was watching an old story I already knew but now being presented in creatively different clothing. The old story was the story of how Odysseus returned and "re-obtained" his own wife as Homer told it in the Odyssey.

I suspect that in the days of when smaller nations often struggled for their cultural integrity amidst the overwhelming forces of conquering nations and story-tellers wanted to try to preserve their cultures, they wrote from a collective framework of epic with many popular story types which they used to fill out their own local people's need for story. Now these oral-literate creative worlds are only left alive today in the form of those works which found a home with a people who managed to persist...
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
Therefore, I tend not to feel it is that organized with the possible exception of the "editor(s)" that put the pieces together.

And these 'pieces' represent ancient traditions, collected and compiled by the final editors. One reason there are two creation accounts etc.
 

Thinking Homer

Understanding and challenging different worldviews
I was kindly asked to write about how I interpret the Genesis story...to what extent literal or figurative. I will try to briefly address this request and hopefully I will also be able to consolidate some of what I've learned in recent years as I have slowly moved from Chapter 1 to 36 in my study.

The title of the thread is my attempt to capture the main way in which I seem to be approaching my understanding of Genesis. Genesis and the Bible is a work of literature. I don't mean to say that at the outset the whole of the Bible is an invention without reference to reality. On the contrary I would say that in spite of the ambiguity and strong likelihood that its historical accuracy is questionable, it is most importantly about the reality of human experience in the world that a people who had come to believe in a unique God. Like any work of literature, if it were merely the invention of the imagination, its relationship to the reality of the reader might be so random as to annoy and put off the reader. But the Bible is anything but that although the distance of the original audience in time and even cultural reality can have the same impact on today's reader.

Now the Bible can be read as literature without also being dismissed as a basis of faith. Although reading the Bible as literature may challenge some of the as to the literalistic and perfect nature of the Word, I think that many will understand that its authors, although divinely inspired, still expressed God's truth partly from their own perspective. My hope is that by reading it as literature in a public context, both believers who want to understand the beauty, truth and original intent of its authors will have much common ground with atheists who want to do the same. Although atheists might approach the Bible as literature from a highly skeptical view as to its virtue, they can be asked to treat it as literature and take it at face value as a serious work and one often understood as deeply influential in the history of literature. In fact, more and more non-believers these days have taken up noteworthy careers in a study of the Bible simply because they see in it an opportunity to explore a great work of literature. Each line and each story in Genesis is part of a greater whole that was intentionally crafted by its authors in an effort to capture reality and the God of that reality.

In my own study I have found that the authors of Genesis should be seen as having consciously molded the story using motifs that repeat themselves in ever evolving and shifting ways. When one follows the motifs and sees how they are varied, you get the impression that the truth these stories are describing is never fully understood from just one perspective. You must take the whole evolution of the motif in hand to understand the whole of the spiritual truth that the Bible is trying to convey. The effect of such a structure of story is to invite interpretation and to provoke the individual to draw from their own personal experience in order to clarify the intentional ambiguities in the stories and across the stories. in other words, the Bible is a work of literature designed to invite participation from its audience through the intentional use of ambiguity and variety of perspective. As such the characters in the story, including God, do not have a neat, unambiguous description. The original audience as much as any later audience must bring to the story their own understanding and in a community effort discuss and learn about the subtleties and deep truths that are revealed when scripture is sincerely discussed together.

I also see Genesis as having been deeply inspired by other mythic and epic works from other cultures. I believe that modern scholarship is helping to show that the Bible was written from both local and foreign influences and that these influences were available to the authors through the cultures that the Jews were inundated by. Having been so often inundated yet cohesive enough to persist, the Jews became adept at survival within a more economically and militarily stronger conqueror. I have read some from other mythic and epic stories and have found either the direct or the shared influence between the Bible and these other works. Most notably I see a deep similarity in a shared cluster of motifs between Genesis and the Mahabharata. This goes beyond a sort the idea of shared motifs across stories due to human psychology. There are too many superficial complex similarities to see this as merely an unconscious similarity. If I ever decide to "go back to school" and get my PhD, I will probably aim at doing a thesis on this similarity and attempt to bring to light this deep similarity between these two stories. Currently my knowledge of the Mahabharata is relatively superficial and I am making the effort now to correct that.

Anyway this is a summary of my view on the understanding and interpretation of Genesis. Any questions, comments and thoughts are welcome.

Yeah I am studying Hinduism at the moment, and I also noticed a lot of similarities. 'Manu', the first man to appear on Earth is very similar to our 'Adam'. There is also the mention of a 'great flood', which is very similar to our 'Noah's flood'. I think that just further strengthens the evidence that these events truly did happen, and we see similar stories across different cultures. One can deduce that as Noah's sons' descendents spread all across the Earth, the story got passed down orally from generation to generation and got recorded in various ways.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I was kindly asked to write about how I interpret the Genesis story...to what extent literal or figurative. I will try to briefly address this request and hopefully I will also be able to consolidate some of what I've learned in recent years as I have slowly moved from Chapter 1 to 36 in my study.

The title of the thread is my attempt to capture the main way in which I seem to be approaching my understanding of Genesis. Genesis and the Bible is a work of literature. I don't mean to say that at the outset the whole of the Bible is an invention without reference to reality. On the contrary I would say that in spite of the ambiguity and strong likelihood that its historical accuracy is questionable, it is most importantly about the reality of human experience in the world that a people who had come to believe in a unique God. Like any work of literature, if it were merely the invention of the imagination, its relationship to the reality of the reader might be so random as to annoy and put off the reader. But the Bible is anything but that although the distance of the original audience in time and even cultural reality can have the same impact on today's reader.

Now the Bible can be read as literature without also being dismissed as a basis of faith. Although reading the Bible as literature may challenge some of the as to the literalistic and perfect nature of the Word, I think that many will understand that its authors, although divinely inspired, still expressed God's truth partly from their own perspective. My hope is that by reading it as literature in a public context, both believers who want to understand the beauty, truth and original intent of its authors will have much common ground with atheists who want to do the same. Although atheists might approach the Bible as literature from a highly skeptical view as to its virtue, they can be asked to treat it as literature and take it at face value as a serious work and one often understood as deeply influential in the history of literature. In fact, more and more non-believers these days have taken up noteworthy careers in a study of the Bible simply because they see in it an opportunity to explore a great work of literature. Each line and each story in Genesis is part of a greater whole that was intentionally crafted by its authors in an effort to capture reality and the God of that reality.

In my own study I have found that the authors of Genesis should be seen as having consciously molded the story using motifs that repeat themselves in ever evolving and shifting ways. When one follows the motifs and sees how they are varied, you get the impression that the truth these stories are describing is never fully understood from just one perspective. You must take the whole evolution of the motif in hand to understand the whole of the spiritual truth that the Bible is trying to convey. The effect of such a structure of story is to invite interpretation and to provoke the individual to draw from their own personal experience in order to clarify the intentional ambiguities in the stories and across the stories. in other words, the Bible is a work of literature designed to invite participation from its audience through the intentional use of ambiguity and variety of perspective. As such the characters in the story, including God, do not have a neat, unambiguous description. The original audience as much as any later audience must bring to the story their own understanding and in a community effort discuss and learn about the subtleties and deep truths that are revealed when scripture is sincerely discussed together.

I also see Genesis as having been deeply inspired by other mythic and epic works from other cultures. I believe that modern scholarship is helping to show that the Bible was written from both local and foreign influences and that these influences were available to the authors through the cultures that the Jews were inundated by. Having been so often inundated yet cohesive enough to persist, the Jews became adept at survival within a more economically and militarily stronger conqueror. I have read some from other mythic and epic stories and have found either the direct or the shared influence between the Bible and these other works. Most notably I see a deep similarity in a shared cluster of motifs between Genesis and the Mahabharata. This goes beyond a sort the idea of shared motifs across stories due to human psychology. There are too many superficial complex similarities to see this as merely an unconscious similarity. If I ever decide to "go back to school" and get my PhD, I will probably aim at doing a thesis on this similarity and attempt to bring to light this deep similarity between these two stories. Currently my knowledge of the Mahabharata is relatively superficial and I am making the effort now to correct that.

Anyway this is a summary of my view on the understanding and interpretation of Genesis. Any questions, comments and thoughts are welcome.
Since it dates back into pre literate history bringing a "modern" view to the text is best exemplified by intelligent design, ken ham young earth creationism, or the secular, random accidentalism. So while i agree yes it must be seen through the eyes of the writers the stories pre-exiated before the writers. How to see that directly is a deep challenge in modern culture. Not easy stuff..
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
And these 'pieces' represent ancient traditions, collected and compiled by the final editors. One reason there are two creation accounts etc.

One thing that I think is important and often overlooked because today we look at everything as having to be in an obvious and explicitly explained logically cohesive whole...the authors of Genesis weren't trying to establish a logically air-tight metaphysics, they wanted to create a cohesive set of stories which examine God and His Creation and His intent from various angles. So much of Genesis was written with further debate in mind that it is fairly trivial in the original author's view that the early chapters of Genesis might present conflicting views on how God created.

This is critical. We all, believers and not, look at the world now through very scientific, rational eyes and expect a textbook (without inner conflict) understanding as a result. This is our newer model for what truth looks like. if we criticize the Bible we should at least understand this difference. But ironically now we have so many whose literalism will do as much to undermine belief (disconnected from reality) as support it through the appeal of the argument of authority and tradition by insisting on the Bible outlining some linear, rational textbook.

What we must and ought to do is understand the power of story and the value to our human survival and persistence against forces greater than ourselves. Mystery and undeniable truths threaten us with extinction, whether self-caused or not. Stagnant interpretations of the Bible as are much of a threat as are complete dismissal of the Bible as a deep source of wisdom (as with other sacred religious texts).

I would argue (and have done so) that just as the Bible arose out of a creative community of story tellers who told stories convincing to their audiences, we need the Bible to return to a similar creative community which can not only elucidate the wisdom already present but make it all the more compelling by "sciencing the s**t" out of it so that it doesn't present any apparent boundaries to a modern audience whose very lives have been transformed by said science.

This is where i like to bring up the idea that Star Trek and Star Wars serve as a substitute (idols and all) for a lack of modern spiritual story telling with the level of scientific sophistication that those cinematic universes have invested in. Of course, I also don't need to remind anyone of just how much we enjoy these series without being too concerned about the scientific accuracy of what they commonly contain...that's because the value, in the end, isn't about the science, its about "boldly going..." where me might otherwise fear to tread. Just so is the value of the Bible.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I was kindly asked to write about how I interpret the Genesis story...to what extent literal or figurative. I will try to briefly address this request and hopefully I will also be able to consolidate some of what I've learned in recent years as I have slowly moved from Chapter 1 to 36 in my study.

The title of the thread is my attempt to capture the main way in which I seem to be approaching my understanding of Genesis. Genesis and the Bible is a work of literature. I don't mean to say that at the outset the whole of the Bible is an invention without reference to reality. On the contrary I would say that in spite of the ambiguity and strong likelihood that its historical accuracy is questionable, it is most importantly about the reality of human experience in the world that a people who had come to believe in a unique God. Like any work of literature, if it were merely the invention of the imagination, its relationship to the reality of the reader might be so random as to annoy and put off the reader. But the Bible is anything but that although the distance of the original audience in time and even cultural reality can have the same impact on today's reader.

Now the Bible can be read as literature without also being dismissed as a basis of faith. Although reading the Bible as literature may challenge some of the as to the literalistic and perfect nature of the Word, I think that many will understand that its authors, although divinely inspired, still expressed God's truth partly from their own perspective. My hope is that by reading it as literature in a public context, both believers who want to understand the beauty, truth and original intent of its authors will have much common ground with atheists who want to do the same. Although atheists might approach the Bible as literature from a highly skeptical view as to its virtue, they can be asked to treat it as literature and take it at face value as a serious work and one often understood as deeply influential in the history of literature. In fact, more and more non-believers these days have taken up noteworthy careers in a study of the Bible simply because they see in it an opportunity to explore a great work of literature. Each line and each story in Genesis is part of a greater whole that was intentionally crafted by its authors in an effort to capture reality and the God of that reality.

In my own study I have found that the authors of Genesis should be seen as having consciously molded the story using motifs that repeat themselves in ever evolving and shifting ways. When one follows the motifs and sees how they are varied, you get the impression that the truth these stories are describing is never fully understood from just one perspective. You must take the whole evolution of the motif in hand to understand the whole of the spiritual truth that the Bible is trying to convey. The effect of such a structure of story is to invite interpretation and to provoke the individual to draw from their own personal experience in order to clarify the intentional ambiguities in the stories and across the stories. in other words, the Bible is a work of literature designed to invite participation from its audience through the intentional use of ambiguity and variety of perspective. As such the characters in the story, including God, do not have a neat, unambiguous description. The original audience as much as any later audience must bring to the story their own understanding and in a community effort discuss and learn about the subtleties and deep truths that are revealed when scripture is sincerely discussed together.

I also see Genesis as having been deeply inspired by other mythic and epic works from other cultures. I believe that modern scholarship is helping to show that the Bible was written from both local and foreign influences and that these influences were available to the authors through the cultures that the Jews were inundated by. Having been so often inundated yet cohesive enough to persist, the Jews became adept at survival within a more economically and militarily stronger conqueror. I have read some from other mythic and epic stories and have found either the direct or the shared influence between the Bible and these other works. Most notably I see a deep similarity in a shared cluster of motifs between Genesis and the Mahabharata. This goes beyond a sort the idea of shared motifs across stories due to human psychology. There are too many superficial complex similarities to see this as merely an unconscious similarity. If I ever decide to "go back to school" and get my PhD, I will probably aim at doing a thesis on this similarity and attempt to bring to light this deep similarity between these two stories. Currently my knowledge of the Mahabharata is relatively superficial and I am making the effort now to correct that.

Anyway this is a summary of my view on the understanding and interpretation of Genesis. Any questions, comments and thoughts are welcome.

If the story is to be interpreted by each individual and there are no hard and fast rules outlining how interpretation is to be done, then the stories can mean anything to anyone. How does that convey any actual truth? Also, you have to take into consideration that many of the stories within Genesis came from similar stories in religions and mythologies that predate the Bible stories.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
If the story is to be interpreted by each individual and there are no hard and fast rules outlining how interpretation is to be done, then the stories can mean anything to anyone. How does that convey any actual truth? Also, you have to take into consideration that many of the stories within Genesis came from similar stories in religions and mythologies that predate the Bible stories.

The way they convey truth is through the dialog between individuals these stories are meant to produce. Story tellers want their audience to continue to think about their stories...this produces value and probably income for the story-tellers. The stories that give us hope and truly, maturely tackle the existential issues we face are those which we will go back to the theaters or streaming services for with dollars in hand. We are checked in our self-serving ideas by each other in sincere dialog with multiple perspectives contributing. What is highlighted by this is just how diverse our shared experience of reality is, but that behind that diversity is this oftentimes mysterious sense that it is IN FACT a singular reality with a definite, though hard to pin down in human language, shape.

The truth in this context arises out of the value placed in the stories as having personal, salutary/salutory benefit as perceived by the customer. But this isn't a one-way manipulation...any invested creator of a story deeply feels the feedback of their devoted audience and the audience also becomes a part.

Is this all just self-serving? No, but certainly it is partly self-serving. But remember, good stories don't just tell us what we want to hear, they tell us what we NEED to hear...and that runs deeper than personal interest. Mistrust of all audiences is an unwarranted cynicism. We really do crave to hear the hard truths only make them palatable enough that we can accept them. This is the craft of the spiritual story teller. The right story for the right audience can lift that audience as a people out of self-serving attitudes and into a much higher way of thinking which is, in turn, more moral, more humane, more the reality (Heaven) we hope for.
 
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sealchan

Well-Known Member
Yeah I am studying Hinduism at the moment, and I also noticed a lot of similarities. 'Manu', the first man to appear on Earth is very similar to our 'Adam'. There is also the mention of a 'great flood', which is very similar to our 'Noah's flood'. I think that just further strengthens the evidence that these events truly did happen, and we see similar stories across different cultures. One can deduce that as Noah's sons' descendents spread all across the Earth, the story got passed down orally from generation to generation and got recorded in various ways.

What are you reading in Hinduism?

I recommend you try out Peter Brooks' "The Mahabharata" as a short but awesome introduction to that scripture.

The Mahabharata (1989 film) - Wikipedia

Make sure you obtain the 320 minute version for viewing not the shorter one.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
So much of Genesis was written with further debate in mind that it is fairly trivial in the original author's view that the early chapters of Genesis might present conflicting views on how God created.

I am not suggesting any conflict. The 'editor/s realized the value of the 2nd account to the whole.

What we must and ought to do is understand the power of story

True. My point being that this 'story' did not begin with Gen, but with Sinai.

But ironically now we have so many whose literalism will do as much to undermine belief

We need to discern the 'literal truth', that which the author/story teller intended to convey through story. The danger is a literalist understanding/reading. The word in God's Word is human.

Mystery and undeniable truths threaten us with extinction,

Not sure how you mean by this, but we need to accept that God is incomprehensible Mystery.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I would argue (and have done so) that just as the Bible arose out of a creative community of story tellers who told stories convincing to their audiences,

I was reminded of the custom of Orthodox Jews following the Seder; of sharing their 'story' beginning with 'My father was a wandering Aramean.'

This is where i like to bring up the idea that Star Trek and Star Wars serve as a substitute

Or the result may be like the telephone game, the original message being lost.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Genesis was never the same after Peter Gabriel left, I never did like Phil Collins.

Genesis is one of my favorite bands. It was too bad when Steve Hackett left...but his solo stuff is awesome. Still by the time Phil Collins sang more than drummed prog rock was resolved to target the pop rock audience for a time...
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Genesis is one of my favorite bands. It was too bad when Steve Hackett left...but his solo stuff is awesome. Still by the time Phil Collins sang more than drummed prog rock was resolved to target the pop rock audience for a time...
I bought the early albums, last one was Lamb Lies Down. I gave up after that.
Saw them live two or three times in Manchester - in fact one of those concerts appeared as Genesis Live in about 1973
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I bought the early albums, last one was Lamb Lies Down. I gave up after that.
Saw them live two or three times in Manchester - in fact one of those concerts appeared as Genesis Live in about 1973

Favorite Gabriel lyric...

Once a man, like the sea I raged,
Once a woman, like the earth I gave...
But there is in fact more earth than sea.

That, by the way, is the biggest missing piece in Genesis...the woman/Goddess side of divinity.
 
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