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Genesis and the Mahabharata

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I undertook an intensive study of the Book of Genesis recently and got as far as most of the way through the story of Jacob and Esau. I began to notice in this story the many parallels with certain plot elements of the Mahabharata. I am planning to do a deep dive into the latter (I know a major undertaking but I also know I will do it) in order to become better informed at making a concise comparison between the two. As it is I suspect that the story of the patriarchs in Genesis probably has as a source the Mahabharata or a common, possibly oral, story framework of some kind. I suspect that Homer and composers of works in Greek mythology may have had access to something similar. There seems to be some kind of framework or "Ur" story that serves as a basis for the great epic narratives that I have encountered. This is more than just a coincidence or archetypal commonality I think.

Has anyone heard of such a claim and if so please provide any sources you may have so I can look into them. If not then perhaps I will have a new contribution to make to the study of comparative epic literature!

Thanks!
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I don't know of anyone who has done what you are embarked on to that depth but there could easily be some that I totally missed.

It may be, however, that Jungian archetypes fit here better than a single historical event that has mutated into different narratives.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I wouldn't discount it entirely; after all, such an exploration of "coincidence" by Sir William Jones gave us the Indo-European language family and the study of comparative and historical linguistics. However, it's also entirely possible that all these stories simply reflect universal human attributes of greed, jealousy, rivalry, power-seeking and the foolish acts those things cause.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I don't know of anyone who has done what you are embarked on to that depth but there could easily be some that I totally missed.

It may be, however, that Jungian archetypes fit here better than a single historical event that has mutated into different narratives.

I don't know if there was a common historical event so much as a common framework for weaving a multi-generational epic. A common mythic history or at least a oral tradition for the parts of such an epic.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
I undertook an intensive study of the Book of Genesis recently and got as far as most of the way through the story of Jacob and Esau. I began to notice in this story the many parallels with certain plot elements of the Mahabharata. I am planning to do a deep dive into the latter (I know a major undertaking but I also know I will do it) in order to become better informed at making a concise comparison between the two. As it is I suspect that the story of the patriarchs in Genesis probably has as a source the Mahabharata or a common, possibly oral, story framework of some kind. I suspect that Homer and composers of works in Greek mythology may have had access to something similar. There seems to be some kind of framework or "Ur" story that serves as a basis for the great epic narratives that I have encountered. This is more than just a coincidence or archetypal commonality I think.

Has anyone heard of such a claim and if so please provide any sources you may have so I can look into them. If not then perhaps I will have a new contribution to make to the study of comparative epic literature!

Thanks!

Could you please give a few examples of the parallels? (Nice topic)
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't discount it entirely; after all, such an exploration of "coincidence" by Sir William Jones gave us the Indo-European language family and the study of comparative and historical linguistics. However, it's also entirely possible that all these stories simply reflect universal human attributes of greed, jealousy, rivalry, power-seeking and the foolish acts those things cause.

The similarities I see involve a clustering of motifs together that brings Genesis and the Mahabharata together in a way that is at a "higher" level than the archetypal. Certainly countless motifs occur in mythic literature across the world that shows their similarities, but this is more in the form of the proximity of these motifs or plot devices together in one place that is suspicious.

Being only familiar with the story of the Mahabharata at a very high level (as portrayed in the movie version of Peter Brooks' play of the epic), I am now undertaking a deeper study of it. But as I read the story of Jacob and Esau I began to notice a large group of motifs in common between the two:

  • Blind Father (Dhritarashtra = Isaac)
  • Warring Brothers (Jacob/Esau = Pandavas/Kauravas)
  • Tricksy Uncle (Shakuni = Laban)
  • Chance Influenced (Jacob's marked sticks = Game of Dice (often depicted with elongated dice)
  • Rescue of the God supported menstrating woman (Rachel sits on idols, protects Jacob's innocence through her deceipt, implied God supported = Draupati (in a version Brooks' employed) drug into court while menstrating, was disrobed but protected from nakedness by a God who caused her to wrapped in an endless cloth)
  • Meeting of armies (Kurukshetra = region around Penuel)
  • Personal "Wrestling" with God (Jacob with angel = Krishna and Arjuna (the Gita))
Given all of these (one of which I newly recognized just now), I have to think that the two stories come from a common source or framework which the two cultures have formed to very different cultural ends.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
I undertook an intensive study of the Book of Genesis recently and got as far as most of the way through the story of Jacob and Esau. I began to notice in this story the many parallels with certain plot elements of the Mahabharata. I am planning to do a deep dive into the latter (I know a major undertaking but I also know I will do it) in order to become better informed at making a concise comparison between the two. As it is I suspect that the story of the patriarchs in Genesis probably has as a source the Mahabharata or a common, possibly oral, story framework of some kind. I suspect that Homer and composers of works in Greek mythology may have had access to something similar. There seems to be some kind of framework or "Ur" story that serves as a basis for the great epic narratives that I have encountered. This is more than just a coincidence or archetypal commonality I think.

Has anyone heard of such a claim and if so please provide any sources you may have so I can look into them. If not then perhaps I will have a new contribution to make to the study of comparative epic literature!

Thanks!

another possibility is that the Gilgamesh epic or other epics that have some level of similarity are because those are a corruption of the original Bible accounts?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The similarities I see involve a clustering of motifs together that brings Genesis and the Mahabharata together in a way that is at a "higher" level than the archetypal. Certainly countless motifs occur in mythic literature across the world that shows their similarities, but this is more in the form of the proximity of these motifs or plot devices together in one place that is suspicious.

Being only familiar with the story of the Mahabharata at a very high level (as portrayed in the movie version of Peter Brooks' play of the epic), I am now undertaking a deeper study of it. But as I read the story of Jacob and Esau I began to notice a large group of motifs in common between the two:

  • Blind Father (Dhritarashtra = Isaac)
  • Warring Brothers (Jacob/Esau = Pandavas/Kauravas)
  • Tricksy Uncle (Shakuni = Laban)
  • Chance Influenced (Jacob's marked sticks = Game of Dice (often depicted with elongated dice)
  • Rescue of the God supported menstrating woman (Rachel sits on idols, protects Jacob's innocence through her deceipt, implied God supported = Draupati (in a version Brooks' employed) drug into court while menstrating, was disrobed but protected from nakedness by a God who caused her to wrapped in an endless cloth)
  • Meeting of armies (Kurukshetra = region around Penuel)
  • Personal "Wrestling" with God (Jacob with angel = Krishna and Arjuna (the Gita))
Given all of these (one of which I newly recognized just now), I have to think that the two stories come from a common source or framework which the two cultures have formed to very different cultural ends.
Which section of Genesis is this story? I will take a look. I know Mahabharata reasonably well. Please note though that brothers fighting brothers for ascendancy etc. is very very common in history and also a popular plot point in many dramatic stories.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Which section of Genesis is this story? I will take a look. I know Mahabharata reasonably well. Please note though that brothers fighting brothers for ascendancy etc. is very very common in history and also a popular plot point in many dramatic stories.

Read the chapters about Jacob and Esau. I failed to mention the motif of the exile...certainly the stories are very different but the accumulation of similar motifs seems too much to be coincidental or archetypal.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
another possibility is that the Gilgamesh epic or other epics that have some level of similarity are because those are a corruption of the original Bible accounts?

I believe that literary analysis places that text much later than it's historical time which makes the Mahabharata and Gilgamesh earlier works.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Which section of Genesis is this story? I will take a look. I know Mahabharata reasonably well. Please note though that brothers fighting brothers for ascendancy etc. is very very common in history and also a popular plot point in many dramatic stories.

I would appreciate your perspective if you take the time to do this.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Well they say there's only really 10 original stories in the world.

Sure and I have studied at length regarding the themes of mythologies across cultures such as the Hero's Journey and other archetypal forms. But I have also begun to look at the written myths which are in religions a literary reworking of largely oral stories. I understand that oral epic poets had mnemonic methods for remembering large quantities of story information. Perhaps they also had ways of chaining stories together that tended to yield similarities. But the epic WRITERS may also have utilized written sources. They may have reworked these epic narratives into ones more appropriate for their own culture.

As Joseph Campbell has said the transmission of a mythic stories motifs may be either through direct cultural transmission (whether through the oral tradition or the literary tradition) or they are not transmitted but arise again in each story-teller due to the influence of a common psychological configuration that it the human brain-mind evolved other the centuries.

The Biblical story of Jacob and Esau definitely has this quality as it shows Jacob leaving his known world, crossing a threshold on his way to his uncle's, crossing another on his flight from his uncle and his return home. I can also see pieces of story taken from Egyptian myth in Jacob's Ladder, for instance.

Now consider the great contrast of detail between Jacob's story and the Mahabharata. If the two came from a similar source then Jacob's story might point more closely to the bare bones of the shared story simply because of its relative lack of development. But to see the little details line up despite this difference in scale also seems to me to point toward a shared source. Because of this chaining of motifs I suspect conscious derivation from a culturally transmitted common source.

Another reason I suspect this is that the Mahabharata, Genesis and Greek mythology all have this similar structure of the world originating in a perfect time and becoming more and more corrupted through the generations. This pattern is clear across the generations of the patriarchs, across the generations of the kings which preceeded Dhritarashtra and in the succession of titans, gods and semi-mortals (particularly Zeus to Achilles) that can be traced through a collection of the Greek myths. This theme of the evolution of the moral landscape is common across all of the mythic traditions even into Arthurian legend and suggests that this form is continuous.

In an analogous way there are the modern film trilogies which all follow a similar pattern:

  1. innocent, poor peasant becomes predominant warrior in the fight for "good"
  2. efforts to consolidate "good" are brutally challenged causing many defeats
  3. a more lasting, final victory is achieved but with great loss/sacrifice
Apply this formula to the following movie trilogies:

  • Samurai Trilogy - Hiroshi Inagaki
  • The Godfather Trilogy - Francis Ford Coppola
  • The Lord of the Rings Trilogy - J.R.R. Tolkein/Peter Jackson
  • Star Wars (IV - VI) - George Lucas
  • Star Wars (I - III) - George Lucas (in an inverted sense where evil replaces good)
  • The Matrix Trilogy - Wachowski's

A more detailed comparison of the motifs I won't go into (but watch Samurai trilogy and Star Wars IV - VI back to back for a striking resemblance) but I think that the above suggests a good portion of conscious effort involved in this case as well.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure and I have studied at length regarding the themes of mythologies across cultures such as the Hero's Journey and other archetypal forms. But I have also begun to look at the written myths which are in religions a literary reworking of largely oral stories. I understand that oral epic poets had mnemonic methods for remembering large quantities of story information. Perhaps they also had ways of chaining stories together that tended to yield similarities. But the epic WRITERS may also have utilized written sources. They may have reworked these epic narratives into ones more appropriate for their own culture.

As Joseph Campbell has said the transmission of a mythic stories motifs may be either through direct cultural transmission (whether through the oral tradition or the literary tradition) or they are not transmitted but arise again in each story-teller due to the influence of a common psychological configuration that it the human brain-mind evolved other the centuries.

The Biblical story of Jacob and Esau definitely has this quality as it shows Jacob leaving his known world, crossing a threshold on his way to his uncle's, crossing another on his flight from his uncle and his return home. I can also see pieces of story taken from Egyptian myth in Jacob's Ladder, for instance.

Now consider the great contrast of detail between Jacob's story and the Mahabharata. If the two came from a similar source then Jacob's story might point more closely to the bare bones of the shared story simply because of its relative lack of development. But to see the little details line up despite this difference in scale also seems to me to point toward a shared source. Because of this chaining of motifs I suspect conscious derivation from a culturally transmitted common source.

Another reason I suspect this is that the Mahabharata, Genesis and Greek mythology all have this similar structure of the world originating in a perfect time and becoming more and more corrupted through the generations. This pattern is clear across the generations of the patriarchs, across the generations of the kings which preceeded Dhritarashtra and in the succession of titans, gods and semi-mortals (particularly Zeus to Achilles) that can be traced through a collection of the Greek myths. This theme of the evolution of the moral landscape is common across all of the mythic traditions even into Arthurian legend and suggests that this form is continuous.

In an analogous way there are the modern film trilogies which all follow a similar pattern:

  1. innocent, poor peasant becomes predominant warrior in the fight for "good"
  2. efforts to consolidate "good" are brutally challenged causing many defeats
  3. a more lasting, final victory is achieved but with great loss/sacrifice
Apply this formula to the following movie trilogies:

  • Samurai Trilogy - Hiroshi Inagaki
  • The Godfather Trilogy - Francis Ford Coppola
  • The Lord of the Rings Trilogy - J.R.R. Tolkein/Peter Jackson
  • Star Wars (IV - VI) - George Lucas
  • Star Wars (I - III) - George Lucas (in an inverted sense where evil replaces good)
  • The Matrix Trilogy - Wachowski's

A more detailed comparison of the motifs I won't go into (but watch Samurai trilogy and Star Wars IV - VI back to back for a striking resemblance) but I think that the above suggests a good portion of conscious effort involved in this case as well.
Interesting. Perhaps they did share a source. Stories in Hindu epics are less about accuracy than they are about imparting life's truths. But embellishment was all the rage back then. Can't speak on Genisis.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Interesting. Perhaps they did share a source. Stories in Hindu epics are less about accuracy than they are about imparting life's truths. But embellishment was all the rage back then. Can't speak on Genisis.

I think it has grown into a huge assumption by a lot of people (millions) that the Bible is mainly about historical accuracy, but I think that the original authors may have aimed at this as part of their literary work but certainly knew better as they drew from their sources and altered that to fulfill their own designs.

I think Hinduism seems to have a much, much better sense overall of religion not being about literalism than Christianity seems to.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I think it has grown into a huge assumption by a lot of people (millions) that the Bible is mainly about historical accuracy, but I think that the original authors may have aimed at this as part of their literary work but certainly knew better as they drew from their sources and altered that to fulfill their own designs.

I think Hinduism seems to have a much, much better sense overall of religion not being about literalism than Christianity seems to.
Well that could be because Hinduism isn't text based like Christianity. I mean sure you may be asked to provide scriptural evidence every once in a while in a debate, but it's not essential to being a Hindu. Not IMO anyway. We follow scripture insofar as we revere the texts, but people seem to just do their own little thing.:shrug: Generally speaking of course.
 
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