genocide?

[IndigoChild5559]

I fully back Zelenski, but there is one thing he is doing that I find annoying. He is misusing the term genocide.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/

noun

1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

According to this definition, Putin is not committing genocide, since it is not his goal to completely irradicate the Ukrainian people. Is he guilty of war crimes? Oh yes!!!! But not genocide specifically.


When we take a word that means a specific horrific thing, and water it down using it to mean lesser offenses, we are abusing the language. We participate in destroying the meaning of a word. If we want a word that refers merely to the intentional killing of civilians, great, let's make a new word. But let's NOT use a word for it that actually means something else.

 

[Nimos]

I fully back Zelenski, but there is one thing he is doing that I find annoying. He is misusing the term genocide.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/

noun

1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

According to this definition, Putin is not committing genocide, since it is not his goal to completely irradicate the Ukrainian people. Is he guilty of war crimes? Oh yes!!!! But not genocide specifically.


When we take a word that means a specific horrific thing, and water it down using it to mean lesser offenses, we are abusing the language. We participate in destroying the meaning of a word. If we want a word that refers merely to the intentional killing of civilians, great, let's make a new word. But let's NOT use a word for it that actually means something else.

I would agree, but again its also a war of the media. Both sides are using "extreme" words to put each other in as much of a bad light as possible and to get people fired up.

Its no different when Putin call Ukrainian government for Nazis etc. because he knows that they are greatly hated in general.

 

[pearl]

When we take a word that means a specific horrific thing, and water it down using it to mean lesser offenses, we are abusing the language. We participate in destroying the meaning of a word. If we want a word that refers merely to the intentional killing of civilians, great, let's make a new word. But let's NOT use a word for it that actually means something else.

I remember the controversy over the Turkish and Armenian 'genocide'.

 

[halbhh]

I agree that it is definitely not at the level of genocide.

But....every time there is a 'cease fire' for Mariupol and civilians try to flee, they are shelled and have to run back.

Day after day: 'cease fire' to let civilians evacuate, they begin, and get shelled by Russian forces.

For more than a week now.

So, look and see what is happening now:

Besieged Ukraine city of Mariupol buries dead in mass grave

After a Week of Siege, Bloodied Mariupol Plans Mass Graves


What's scary is that Putin tried to paint the east Ukraine war between Ukraine and separatists as 'genocide' for propaganda purposes, but now for the first time, we are starting to see something in the area that could become a genocide, if it continues.

And that city had a population of 450,000.....

It's a human fact that those guilty of something very often accuse others of doing the thing they are guilty of (whether as an excuse or a rationale or a self deception, or just pure propaganda), so when Putin accused Ukraine of genocide, it raises the very real possibility that Putin may therefore carry out a genocide.

The world is holding its breath.

I fully back Zelenski, but there is one thing he is doing that I find annoying. He is misusing the term genocide.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/

noun

1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

According to this definition, Putin is not committing genocide, since it is not his goal to completely irradicate the Ukrainian people. Is he guilty of war crimes? Oh yes!!!! But not genocide specifically.


When we take a word that means a specific horrific thing, and water it down using it to mean lesser offenses, we are abusing the language. We participate in destroying the meaning of a word. If we want a word that refers merely to the intentional killing of civilians, great, let's make a new word. But let's NOT use a word for it that actually means something else.

 

[ChristineM]

it is not his goal to completely irradicate the Ukrainian people.

I've heard that Putin has claimed he does not recognise Ukrainian people and has instructed his army to kill, not only armed forced but civilians as well.

I would call that genocide.

 

[sun rise]

Like @IndigoChild5559 , I find the word genocide gets tossed around too often. But from the definition itself in the OP

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

putin does have the intent of destroying Ukraine as a nation and in consequence is deliberately killing a large number of people.

It does not rise anywhere near to the level of the holocaust but what russia is doing in Ukraine does meet the definition of genocide.

 

[Father Heathen]

Report

I've heard that Putin has claimed he does not recognise Ukrainian people and has instructed his army to kill, not only armed forced but civilians as well.

I would call that genocide.

Reports from this morning claimed that the Russians deliberately targeted and bombed a children's hospital.

 

[halbhh]

Report

Reports from this morning claimed that the Russians deliberately targeted and bombed a children's hospital.

Yes, and it's indicative of the whole situation. Even while Putin tries to paint it as about attacking a newly formed Ukraine military center (the claim Ukrainian military was using the hospital, and it no longer had patients, a clear falsehood), the world can see the reality -- actually, an attack on a hospital, regardless of claims/rationales/excuses -- as in the pictures in a post just above that are being seen around the world.

 

[ChristineM]

Report

Reports from this morning claimed that the Russians deliberately targeted and bombed a children's hospital.

Along side which is a maternity hospital, which was also a target.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I fully back Zelenski, but there is one thing he is doing that I find annoying. He is misusing the term genocide.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/

noun

1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

According to this definition, Putin is not committing genocide, since it is not his goal to completely irradicate the Ukrainian people. Is he guilty of war crimes? Oh yes!!!! But not genocide specifically.


When we take a word that means a specific horrific thing, and water it down using it to mean lesser offenses, we are abusing the language. We participate in destroying the meaning of a word. If we want a word that refers merely to the intentional killing of civilians, great, let's make a new word. But let's NOT use a word for it that actually means something else.

Maybe genocide in terms of culture and way of life?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

When we take a word that means a specific horrific thing, and water it down using it to mean lesser offenses, we are abusing the language.

If you've been following this, and I've been following this since probably before November, you'd see that this whole thing actually seems to be characterized by denial. The russians denied they were even going to even invade, and they referred to the troop buildup as an 'alleged buildup.' Reports say that many of the troops themselves, were even taken aback by the order.

Lavrov even denied that anyone was injured in the children's hospital that was just bombed. Controversy was also offered around the potentially deadly nuclear power station situation. All that, and putin said there was a 'genocide' going on in ukraine, before he went in - though it is unclear to me what the nature of the donbass tension was, that was happening there since around the the annexation of crimea

If you destroy enough of a people's culture, and take enough of their land, and abuse them until they don't care, but declare that none of it is 'deliberate,' then that is only adding 'salt' to season your 'food.' You seem to not understand that when harm is inflicted by a power, the power may then make an attempt to 'appear righteous.' So yes, a power that inflicts harm is not below the ability to 'abuse language,' and make you question your beliefs

So I guess my point is, that if a power does something bad, and denies it, it is actually worse than the deliberate execution of that bad thing.

 

[metis]

"Does a rose by any other name smell different?".

True, it is technically not genocide, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, maybe it's pretty much a duck.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I agree that it is definitely not at the level of genocide.

But....every time there is a 'cease fire' for Mariupol and civilians try to flee, they are shelled and have to run back.

Day after day: 'cease fire' to let civilians evacuate, they begin, and get shelled by Russian forces.

For more than a week now.

So, look and see what is happening now:

Besieged Ukraine city of Mariupol buries dead in mass grave

After a Week of Siege, Bloodied Mariupol Plans Mass Graves


What's scary is that Putin tried to paint the east Ukraine war between Ukraine and separatists as 'genocide' for propaganda purposes, but now for the first time, we are starting to see something in the area that could become a genocide, if it continues.

And that city had a population of 450,000.....

It's a human fact that those guilty of something very often accuse others of doing the thing they are guilty of (whether as an excuse or a rationale or a self deception, or just pure propaganda), so when Putin accused Ukraine of genocide, it raises the very real possibility that Putin may therefore carry out a genocide.

The world is holding its breath.

I agree that the Russians are killing civilians without care, which is a war crime. Horrible stuff. Just not the same thing as genocide.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I agree that the Russians are killing civilians without care, which is a war crime. Horrible stuff. Just not the same thing as genocide.

So is there a one word description of what is happening in the post you quoted? Or does it have to be explained in three or four words

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So is there a one word description of what is happening in the post you quoted? Or does it have to be explained in three or four words

No I don't believe there is a specific word for the targeting and killing of civilians. Maybe we need one

 

[amorphous_constellation]

No I don't believe there is a specific word for the targeting and killing of civilians. Maybe we need one

Do you believe there could be anything covert about genocide, or does the power inflicting it have to display complete deliberate intent, for it to be genocide?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you believe there could be anything covert about genocide, or does the power inflicting it have to display complete deliberate intent, for it to be genocide?

Well lets look at a few instances of genocide. Take Rwanda. There was nothing secret about what they were doing. The radio hosts constantly referred to them as cockroaches -- what do you do with cockroaches? Knowledge of the genocide was in the media all over the world. Same with the genocide in the Balkans. It was out in the open. But this is not the case with the genocide of the Jews by the Nazis. Although the killing was incredibly cold and well organized, it was not public knowledge, but was covert. It wasn't until the death camps were liberated that the world at large (and even the German people) found out what was going on.

 

[sayak83]

I fully back Zelenski, but there is one thing he is doing that I find annoying. He is misusing the term genocide.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/

noun

1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

According to this definition, Putin is not committing genocide, since it is not his goal to completely irradicate the Ukrainian people. Is he guilty of war crimes? Oh yes!!!! But not genocide specifically.


When we take a word that means a specific horrific thing, and water it down using it to mean lesser offenses, we are abusing the language. We participate in destroying the meaning of a word. If we want a word that refers merely to the intentional killing of civilians, great, let's make a new word. But let's NOT use a word for it that actually means something else.

It's rhetoric that is necessary during war.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Well lets look at a few instances of genocide. Take Rwanda. There was nothing secret about what they were doing. The radio hosts constantly referred to them as cockroaches -- what do you do with cockroaches? Knowledge of the genocide was in the media all over the world. Same with the genocide in the Balkans. It was out in the open. But this is not the case with the genocide of the Jews by the Nazis. Although the killing was incredibly cold and well organized, it was not public knowledge, but was covert. It wasn't until the death camps were liberated that the world at large (and even the German people) found out what was going on.

Then you have an example. And so then, I think there are three ways of perceiving it, that then can attach to the concept. There are the overt knowledge examples, like you describe, but then there is a 'lack of knowledge' way, and a also a way where knowledge is there, but there is denial.

To add to examples to those latter ways, it seems the uyghur situation must include some covertness, due to the fact that china doesn't like media access. Another example, might be what we did with nuclear testing, to the marshallese islanders. Another example might be the 'thousand years' that john lennon talks about in 'luck of the irish.'

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Then you have an example. And so then, I think there are three ways of perceiving it, that then can attach to the concept. There are the overt knowledge examples, like you describe, but then there is a 'lack of knowledge' way, and a also a way where knowledge is there, but there is denial.

To add to examples to those latter ways, it seems the uyghur situation must include some covertness, due to the fact that china doesn't like media access. Another example, might be what we did with nuclear testing, to the marshallese islanders. Another example might be the 'thousand years' that john lennon talks about in 'luck of the irish.'

What all the examples have in common is that the term is applied when evidence is found. No one was saying the Germans were committing genocide while it was still secret -- it was after the war when the death camps were liberated, and the paperwork found, that we had evidence of genocide.