беспокойный путешественни
All gods are great.
Why do you have this obsessive need to defend the enemy of the free world?
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German politician says: Ukraine will not win this war
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
Why do you have this obsessive need to defend the enemy of the free world?
The country that is well known to do such things, is Russia.
Your entire position appears to rest on uncritical acceptance of the premise that the West is always good and Russia is always evil. That seems a bit too rigidly black-and-white to me.
Well, if your entire position rests on the premise of "Trust me, bro, NATO would never do anything wrong," then it's perfectly valid to put that premise to the test.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I am aware that Russia is aggressively seeking political change in Ukraine .. but I can no longer take this conflict in isolation .. I am looking at the bigger picture.
i.e. the dominance of 'the west' in global politics / UN
We have a situation where a significant population of the world is aligning themselves against 'the west' in Kazan, Russia .. hmm.
This idea that 'the west' always has the moral high ground is simply not true.
We see rhetoric from the US condemning socialism in all its forms, with the likelihood of
Trump becoming president again increasing.
Casualties in the Russo-Ukrainian War include six deaths during the 2014 annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, 14,200–14,400 military and civilian deaths during the War in Donbas, and up to 1,000,000 estimated casualties during the Russian invasion of Ukraine till mid-September 2024.
Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War - Wikipedia
It's time to stop this, whilst we still have a chance, by putting political preferences aside.
..or are you saying the conflict should be escalated, with a missile attack on Moscow?
You also need to understand that there are so called Western countries (like mine) who have always been vassals, colonies, of the West.
And our leaders obeyed a devilish cabal of warmongers.
Those who destroyed Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, etc...etc...
Do you really think people here were happy to be on the side of those warmongers?
Many of us have been thinking there's no morality in war...war is immoral.
Especially because Iraq had done nothing to the US...so that's even more disgusting.
Bravo.Casualties in the Russo-Ukrainian War include six deaths during the 2014 annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, 14,200–14,400 military and civilian deaths during the War in Donbas, and up to 1,000,000 estimated casualties during the Russian invasion of Ukraine till mid-September 2024.
Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War - Wikipedia
It's time to stop this, whilst we still have a chance, by putting political preferences aside.
..or are you saying the conflict should be escalated, with a missile attack on Moscow?
AsianActivist
Member
If Ukraine loses it's not because they're the bad guys but because the West did not do enough.
Ukraine has neither won nor lost.
Ukraine kept its independence...but those territories gained by Russia belong to Russia, now.
Cope with that. And move on.
Balthazzar
N. Germanic Descent
I do care what you think.
Do you think that Zelenskyy can win this war?
No, they can't - not alone and this is the point and aim as well as the long-standing position by nearly everyone involved, which is why NATO and the European union is and has been in the balance. We are part of NATO, and with China's involvement in the conflict, North Koreas involvement, among the many others who have been "gearing up" for nearly a half decade now, if not longer, seem to all have one thing established as a known among them.
This is just the beginning
@Argentbear - Lots of people care and for good reason.
It's a frightening prospect
I bet that the conspiracy theorists will say that in Italy we take orders from Putin, by looking at this picture.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
No, that's just your black and white assumption about me.
I'm just talking about the present war in Ukraine.
Ironically, it is your own assumption
беспокойный путешественни
All gods are great.
That "free" world, being RUSSIA?
That’s not what I said, but it amazes me to see you defenders of US excessive war crimes slowly fall into madness.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
"always" isn't what I would say. But we can definitely speak in general terms of overall culture.
And in that context, what we have is that "the west" represents free secular democracy while the other camp consists of authoritarian, dictatorial societies where utterly ignoring human rights etc is pretty much the rule.
So in general, yes, I will definitely take the overall morals of the western system over "the others" any day of the week.
And so do most humans. This is why so many people try to flee from those "other" countries to migrate into "western" countries and not so much the other way round.
As an example, I always find it so ironic how certain people in the west criticize and get off on their leaders / governments while delusionally claiming how they do a better job in countries like Russia. They don't seem to understand that their ow-so-evil western countries actually grant them the freedom and right to spew their guts all over it, while such behavior in countries like Russia and China would get you arrested.
So, yes, absolutely.... I have NO PROBLEM AT ALL claiming the moral high ground of western culture in general as compared to countries like Russia, China, Iran, etc. No problem at all. That doesn't mean I think we are "perfect" or don't engage in our own immoral things - and those things definitely need to be named, critiqued and if possible changed.
But let's not pretend as if in general it evens out. It's not even close.
Yeah, the US definitely has its issues. Personally I'm not a big fan at all and wouldn't want to live there either.
But if given the choice between living in the US or Russia, China, Iran, North Korea,.... I'll pick the US any day of the week. It's a no brainer.
Casualties in the Russo-Ukrainian War include six deaths during the 2014 annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, 14,200–14,400 military and civilian deaths during the War in Donbas, and up to 1,000,000 estimated casualties during the Russian invasion of Ukraine till mid-September 2024.
Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War - Wikipedia
It's time to stop this, whilst we still have a chance, by putting political preferences aside.
..or are you saying the conflict should be escalated, with a missile attack on Moscow?
Every escalation of this conflict, comes from the Russian side. They started the trouble in Crimea. They started the trouble in Donbas. They invaded the country. And now, they are even deploying North Korean troops at the frontlines also. And off course, with threats of nuclear strikes at every step.
The way I see it, Ukraine is simply responding to every escalation.
Yes, it's time to stop this. I don't think you'll find anyone who doesn't want it to stop on "this side". The problem is the other side. They don't want to stop it. As they have been saying and continue to say: "It will continue till all goals are achieved". Russia can stop it easily, in 5 minutes. Stop fighting and withdraw. Easy.
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TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Italy is firmly on the side of NATO and Ukraine, no matter your wet dreams about Putin.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Pray tell, what war crimes committed by America have been defended in this thread?
Or are you making the incredibly stupid argument that defending America making one specific action or taking a specific side in a specific conflict is the same as endorsing everything America does or ever has done in the past?
When are you going to get around to arguing why Ukraine, a sovereign democratic state, either deserves to be invaded and annexed, or that no states should have a vested interest in it not being annexed and work to assist them?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I don't think I ever defended any war crimes of the US.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
This is a funny way of saying "invading Ukraine, committing mass civilian death and annexing sovereign territory".
By desiring appeasement of a militirisitic, fascist government seeking expansion? You're right. When has that ever lead to bad things happening?
If you want to argue that western influence has been a significantly negative contributing factor in global politics, you have my ear. If, however, this argument is being presented when a western power is helping to defend a sovereign nation against military invasion, I have to ask about timing. It's like arguing that police need serious reform due to widespread corruption. It may be a good thing to point out, and worth discussing, but it'd be a very odd thing to bring up in response to the police being called to detain a serial rapist and murderer. One might infer that your position is less interested in police reform, but in defending rapists and murderers.
Nobody is arguing that. You, on the other hand, seem to pivot your entire analysis on the opposite assumption: that the very fact that "the west" is involved at all is bad. If you understand why "the west has always had the moral high ground" is a false position, then you should understand the implication of your argument - "the west never has the moral high ground" is a false position as well. It is quite possible for "the west" to unfairly hold hegemonic power, be involved in countless atrocities and be guilty of much more and for it to still be the right thing for them do when they are involved in a specific conflict on a specific side.
You are the one sanding over nuance by arguing that, because "the west" has been bad in other instances, it MUST be the case that they are in the wrong on this one. Many posters here see the flaw in this reasoning, and while it can easily be pointed out that America is far from innocent and is much more interested in geopolitical standing rather than pure altruism in its involvement in Ukraine, that doesn't exactly render the argument "Ukraine deserve aid because they are currently being attacked by a far more powerful neighbour who wish to annex their territory and kill their people en masse" moot. It may feel very "moral high ground" to hold the position that the real villain on the world stage is actually "the west", but it rings a bit hollow when the field in which you choose to deploy this moral grandstand is a field in which people in a small country are fighting for their lives and their freedom against a militarily aggressive, fascist dictator intent on seizing their territory.
Perhaps you should be less concerned with America providing weapons and more concerned with why the providing of those weapons is needed in the first place. Perhaps you ought to be less concerned with the American businessmen and politicians who profit from greater influence in eastern Europe than you should be with the far more immediate issue of people desperately fighting for their lives against an oppressor.
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беспокойный путешественни
All gods are great.
As much as I would love to hit you with a History book, I’ll leave this thread. Have a nice day and enjoy your alternate reality.
Like Germany...right?
When Scholz firmly says: we are not at war with Russia...
it clearly opens the eyes of whoever wants a world war between us and Russia.
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TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation - Wikipedia
Ok. Try not to drown in the river of Russian propaganda.