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Gnosticism

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I read a thread by a gnostic, and looked up the web page referred to, as an overview. I then looked at a couple of other pages on Gnosticism, and found that virtually each page on the subject was contradictory.

One page implied a strong Christian tie, one gave a hint at a link to Judaism, whilst another pointed to pagan ways of looking at things.

Can anyone explain why ? Is gnosticism actually very wide ranging, with many 'sections'?
 

spacemonkey

Pneumatic Spiritualist
Just because a belief has foundations in many faiths, does that make it contradictory? Did you ever consider that all religions might come from the same root. Gnostics attempt to reconcile the differances between the faiths and realize that it is the MESSAGE that is important.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
spacemonkey said:
Just because a belief has foundations in many faiths, does that make it contradictory? Did you ever consider that all religions might come from the same root. Gnostics attempt to reconcile the differances between the faiths and realize that it is the MESSAGE that is important.
Personally, i wouldn't word it like that. Mani attempted to merge Christianity, Zoroastrianism and Buddhism. But i reckon most Gnostics searched for the wisdom in each faith, rather than trying to reconcile the differences. You are right though, it is the message that is important to us, not the mythology, dogma or propaganda present in each faith.

Also though, i wouldn't say that any Gnostic text contradicts another, they all have the same basic underpinnings, its only the cultural mythology which differs. So, while a Gnostic may be a a Jew, Chriatian, Muslim or Pagan; their essential Gnosticism (Demiurge theory plus the search for Gnosis) binds them together into one group.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Michel,

Part of your problem stems from the fact that the Gnostic religions are syncretistic and pre-date Christianity. When Christianity came along pre-existing Gnostics appear to have adopted certain aspects of the faith (most commonly Christ as a great teacher, but there were some that did believe He was a god, but not Incarnate). The ancient Gnostic sects, those that were Christian, disagreed with one another at least as much as they did with the mainstream Church, so it's probably better to think of Gnosticism as a group of different movements sharing some similarities rather than a religion per se. How the position of the neo-Gnostics compares to any of the groups of antiquity I couldn't really say, though I hope for some clarification so that I can participate in one of Halcyon's other threads which appears to be based on a faulty premise regarding our soteriology.

James
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
JamesThePersian said:
Part of your problem stems from the fact that the Gnostic religions are syncretistic and pre-date Christianity. When Christianity came along pre-existing Gnostics appear to have adopted certain aspects of the faith (most commonly Christ as a great teacher, but there were some that did believe He was a god, but not Incarnate). The ancient Gnostic sects, those that were Christian, disagreed with one another at least as much as they did with the mainstream Church, so it's probably better to think of Gnosticism as a group of different movements sharing some similarities rather than a religion per se. How the position of the neo-Gnostics compares to any of the groups of antiquity I couldn't really say, though I hope for some clarification so that I can participate in one of Halcyon's other threads which appears to be based on a faulty premise regarding our soteriology.
I'd say you are correct for the most part, Gnosticism was composed of many movements. But they only differed in their view of mythology, which in Gnosticism is secondary to Gnosis. The belief in Gnosis binds all Gnostics together, like the belief in the deity of Christ binds all the different Christian sects together.

The position of neo-Gnostics is as varied as that of the ancients. Each person's Gnosis is personal, and as such his or her path to Gnosis is also personal and individual. Mythology can be used to group people of similar culture, but doesn't separate them from the wider Gnostic community.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Halcyon said:
I'd say you are correct for the most part, Gnosticism was composed of many movements. But they only differed in their view of mythology, which in Gnosticism is secondary to Gnosis. The belief in Gnosis binds all Gnostics together, like the belief in the deity of Christ binds all the different Christian sects together.

The position of neo-Gnostics is as varied as that of the ancients. Each person's Gnosis is personal, and as such his or her path to Gnosis is also personal and individual. Mythology can be used to group people of similar culture, but doesn't separate them from the wider Gnostic community.
No, I'd say they disagreed on more than just mythology. Two strikingly different views of Christ emerge from different sects, and I'm pretty sure there were more positions than these two. In one view Christ was a man like any other, a teacher or prophet and only adopted son of God (sometimes this is viewed just as a titular thing, other times it's full blown Adoptionalism where He was indwelt by the spirit of God after baptism). The other extreme is the belief that Christ was a god but that He only had the appearance of a body and hence all the physical aspects of His life, including the Crucifixion happened in appearance only. This dualistic and docetistic variety of Gnosticism believed that matter was evil and created by the 'bad' God of the Old Testament whereas the other form of Gnosticism I mentioned had no such belief. In my opinion this is a profound difference that has major ramifications for many aspects of the faith. Do modern neo-Gnostics subscribe to either of these positions or to something else entirely?

James
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
JamesThePersian said:
No, I'd say they disagreed on more than just mythology. Two strikingly different views of Christ emerge from different sects, and I'm pretty sure there were more positions than these two. In one view Christ was a man like any other, a teacher or prophet and only adopted son of God (sometimes this is viewed just as a titular thing, other times it's full blown Adoptionalism where He was indwelt by the spirit of God after baptism). The other extreme is the belief that Christ was a god but that He only had the appearance of a body and hence all the physical aspects of His life, including the Crucifixion happened in appearance only. This dualistic and docetistic variety of Gnosticism believed that matter was evil and created by the 'bad' God of the Old Testament whereas the other form of Gnosticism I mentioned had no such belief. In my opinion this is a profound difference that has major ramifications for many aspects of the faith. Do modern neo-Gnostics subscribe to either of these positions or to something else entirely?

James
Again you are correct, for the most part. I've never heard of a group who rejected the belief in a 'bad god', this is called the theory of Demiurge, and as far as i know it is one of two beliefs you must have to really be a Gnostic. If you have evidence to the contrary i'd be delighted to read it.
You talk about the differences in the groups' view of Jesus - i'd suggest these are mythological difference, and nothing more. Gnostics concentrate on the message of Jesus, it is that which is important to us.
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
spacemonkey said:
Just because a belief has foundations in many faiths, does that make it contradictory? Did you ever consider that all religions might come from the same root. Gnostics attempt to reconcile the differances between the faiths and realize that it is the MESSAGE that is important.

....i love you!
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Halcyon said:
Again you are correct, for the most part. I've never heard of a group who rejected the belief in a 'bad god', this is called the theory of Demiurge, and as far as i know it is one of two beliefs you must have to really be a Gnostic. If you have evidence to the contrary i'd be delighted to read it.
You talk about the differences in the groups' view of Jesus - i'd suggest these are mythological difference, and nothing more. Gnostics concentrate on the message of Jesus, it is that which is important to us.


Ya'll covered the subject better than i've ever heard.... then again, i've never met another Gnostic... so that would tend to make sense i guess... enough talking....
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
For those who are interested, this is a link to a study of the history and beliefs of Christian Gnostics. Although there are some minor points within it that i would debate, it should give the reader the essential basics of Christian Gnosticism. And thus, hopefully, open up some paths of debate. :)

http://www.essene.com/Gospels/GnosticAndSophia.html

Enjoy! :D
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Halcyon said:
For those who are interested, this is a link to a study of the history and beliefs of Christian Gnostics.

thank you! I've found websites that cover it, but not as thoroughly. I also found a website that discusses the Order of Nazorean Essenes. I was wondering if you knew if that was still Gnostics or something else, cause they cover some Gnostic themes, but im not sure what their point is... As far as the website goes... i cant remember what it is.... but ask me later for it if you'd like. I think all you have to do is google it...
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Halcyon said:
For those who are interested, this is a link to a study of the history and beliefs of Christian Gnostics. Although there are some minor points within it that i would debate, it should give the reader the essential basics of Christian Gnosticism. And thus, hopefully, open up some paths of debate. :)

http://www.essene.com/Gospels/GnosticAndSophia.html

Enjoy! :D
Hi, Halcyon.

Thanks for that great link. I am currently printing out the entire document, since I want to read it on paper instead of on my monitor. In glancing through it, I noticed a couple of similarities to Mormonism. Maybe when I get through reading it in more depth, we can exchange thoughts on these similarities.

Kathryn
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Katzpur said:
Hi, Halcyon.

Thanks for that great link. I am currently printing out the entire document, since I want to read it on paper instead of on my monitor. In glancing through it, I noticed a couple of similarities to Mormonism. Maybe when I get through reading it in more depth, we can exchange thoughts on these similarities.

Kathryn

I know that you weren't talking to me on the subject, but that was the question i was going to ask Halcyon. See, when i was reading the Gnostic Bible, it didn't seem anything like the Book of Mormon, but the way it's explained on online sources makes the two books sound similar. I havent completely read the Book of Mormon, but i've looked through it. The books didn't remotley mesh up to me... could you explain it further? Or maybe give me specific refrences to morman texts that mention Gnostic beliefs?

Thank you, i'd really appriciate it
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
gnosis_777 said:
I know that you weren't talking to me on the subject, but that was the question i was going to ask Halcyon. See, when i was reading the Gnostic Bible, it didn't seem anything like the Book of Mormon, but the way it's explained on online sources makes the two books sound similar. I havent completely read the Book of Mormon, but i've looked through it. The books didn't remotley mesh up to me... could you explain it further? Or maybe give me specific refrences to morman texts that mention Gnostic beliefs?

Thank you, i'd really appriciate it
Well, how about for starters, I'll just mention some of the parts of the document Halcyon provided the link to that, when I read them, made me think, "Hmmm. That sounds familiar."

1. "Their vocabulary is unusual; their concepts defy the ideas of sin, the afterlife, and humanity's relatipnship with God which underlie most Western traditions."

Obviously, since I don't know next to nothing about Gnostic doctrines, I can't comment as to how similar they are to Mormon doctrine. But I do know that the LDS understanding of the afterlife and man's relationship to God is significantly different than that of mainstream Christianity.

2. "The Gnostics wrote of an ongoing relationship with Jesus, even years after his death, through revelation and vision.... They were brave enough and bold enough to lay claim to this birthright..."

I know of no Christian denomination today other than Mormonism that claims ongoing revelation from God to living prophets, personally authorized by God to receive His word.

3. "They... were destined to suffer mightily for their daring, for bit by bit their schools were condemned, their voices hushed to a bare whisper. Their sacred and treasured writings, the mystical words of the beloved Teacher, were destroyed with hardly a trace by a Christian orthodoxy that was wedded too irrevocably to the political power of the Roman State."

As you may know, we believe that a universal apostasy took place during the first couple of centuries following Christ's death. This statement seems to describe one way in which that apostasy may have taken place.

4. "Basilides claimed to have received 'secret words' of Jesus from the apostle Matthias."

"In approaching the Gnostic texts, one is immediately struck by the many concepts which have a root in esoteric tradition. Without this key, the writings are elusive, mysterious and sometimes incompresensible. That certain of their texts claim to be secret teachings, it is probably that there was an even more secret teaching shared by an inner circle, possibly contained in only one copy or transmitted by word of mouth.

I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but the Latter-day Saints have a strong belief in esoteric teachings, unlike mainstream Christianity. Our temples are open only to worthy, commited members of the Church, and we do not speak of what takes place in the temple outside of its walls. We hold these things to be sacred and to be taught only to the spiritually mature.

5. "The latter-day religion of Jesus Christ has never really encouraged an inquiry into the nature of God. Its emphasis has always been on Jesus as the Son of God..."

LDS doctrine insists that God the Father wants us to know Him and that, while He is a mystery to our finite minds, He has actually revealed many important things about Himself to us. We also see Jesus Christ as subordinate to His Father, although probably not to the degree the Gnostics do.

6. "Because humanity has been endowed with a soul, fashioned by the higher order of creators, it belongs to an order of evolution beyond the physical, and can, therefore, aspire to the heights of the spiritual kingdom.... It is the attainment of the human stage of evolution that marks the transition from the lower world of the physical into a higher spiritual realm.... Instead of being at the whim of the Gods, they spoke of man himself as a potential god, with the capability of assuming power over the physical world."

This sounds a lot the the LDS doctrine of Eternal Progression and Deification to me, though I'm sure there are many differences.

7. "When Adam and Eve succumbed to temptation, they 'disobeyed' the lower law of physical creation in order to respond to a higher law of spiritual growth."

Wow! I know of no other Christian denomination today that, like the Latter-day Saints, sees the Fall of Adam as a blessing instead of a curse. While we recognize that there were negative consequences attached to Adam's and Eve's transgression, we believe that they disobeyed the commandment not to partake of the forbidden fruit in order to be able to progress into true mortality, being subject to death, but also having the ability to know good from evil. It would be entirely accurate to say that we honor them to a far greater extent than we condemn them.

8. "Its path of progress lies in finding the middle way between the opposites. The only way to do this is to embark on the long journey of human evolution, willingly to open itself to all of its trials -- the pain, sorrow and death of terrestrial life. It is a phase that every kingdom in creation must pass through, and is the only way to move into higher realms, because nothing is given without merit."

"When Adam and Eve, symbolizing humanity, left the Garden of Eden, they did so by choice, leaving the comforts of a known existence for an insecure and probably treacherous future.... It is anything but a shameful act. It is the journey of the Hero, pure and simple."

We're talking Mormonism here. "There must needs be opposition in all things."

9. "The Jewel of Uncommon Price, and The Hymn of the Pearl."

This one hit me right between the eyes. Mormons have four sacred texts: The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and... The Pearl of Great Price! I was a little bit confused about who the your Price and his royal parents were in The Hymn of the Prince, but if they are who I think they are, the story is right along the lines of the LDS belief in God's Plan of Salvation. Could you explain this to me? Who is the Price and who were his parents?

Anyway, I'm always interested in finding parallels between my Church and ancient Christianity, and maybe I'm overdoing it in this brief analysis. But I'd be interested in hearing your comments on some of the teachings, etc. I've brought up.





 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Katzpur said:
Well, how about for starters, I'll just mention some of the parts of the document Halcyon provided the link to that, when I read them, made me think, "Hmmm. That sounds familiar."

1. "Their vocabulary is unusual; their concepts defy the ideas of sin, the afterlife, and humanity's relatipnship with God which underlie most Western traditions."

Obviously, since I don't know next to nothing about Gnostic doctrines, I can't comment as to how similar they are to Mormon doctrine. But I do know that the LDS understanding of the afterlife and man's relationship to God is significantly different than that of mainstream Christianity.

2. "The Gnostics wrote of an ongoing relationship with Jesus, even years after his death, through revelation and vision.... They were brave enough and bold enough to lay claim to this birthright..."

I know of no Christian denomination today other than Mormonism that claims ongoing revelation from God to living prophets, personally authorized by God to receive His word.

3. "They... were destined to suffer mightily for their daring, for bit by bit their schools were condemned, their voices hushed to a bare whisper. Their sacred and treasured writings, the mystical words of the beloved Teacher, were destroyed with hardly a trace by a Christian orthodoxy that was wedded too irrevocably to the political power of the Roman State."

As you may know, we believe that a universal apostasy took place during the first couple of centuries following Christ's death. This statement seems to describe one way in which that apostasy may have taken place.

4. "Basilides claimed to have received 'secret words' of Jesus from the apostle Matthias."

"In approaching the Gnostic texts, one is immediately struck by the many concepts which have a root in esoteric tradition. Without this key, the writings are elusive, mysterious and sometimes incompresensible. That certain of their texts claim to be secret teachings, it is probably that there was an even more secret teaching shared by an inner circle, possibly contained in only one copy or transmitted by word of mouth.

I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but the Latter-day Saints have a strong belief in esoteric teachings, unlike mainstream Christianity. Our temples are open only to worthy, commited members of the Church, and we do not speak of what takes place in the temple outside of its walls. We hold these things to be sacred and to be taught only to the spiritually mature.

5. "The latter-day religion of Jesus Christ has never really encouraged an inquiry into the nature of God. Its emphasis has always been on Jesus as the Son of God..."

LDS doctrine insists that God the Father wants us to know Him and that, while He is a mystery to our finite minds, He has actually revealed many important things about Himself to us. We also see Jesus Christ as subordinate to His Father, although probably not to the degree the Gnostics do.

6. "Because humanity has been endowed with a soul, fashioned by the higher order of creators, it belongs to an order of evolution beyond the physical, and can, therefore, aspire to the heights of the spiritual kingdom.... It is the attainment of the human stage of evolution that marks the transition from the lower world of the physical into a higher spiritual realm.... Instead of being at the whim of the Gods, they spoke of man himself as a potential god, with the capability of assuming power over the physical world."

This sounds a lot the the LDS doctrine of Eternal Progression and Deification to me, though I'm sure there are many differences.

7. "When Adam and Eve succumbed to temptation, they 'disobeyed' the lower law of physical creation in order to respond to a higher law of spiritual growth."

Wow! I know of no other Christian denomination today that, like the Latter-day Saints, sees the Fall of Adam as a blessing instead of a curse. While we recognize that there were negative consequences attached to Adam's and Eve's transgression, we believe that they disobeyed the commandment not to partake of the forbidden fruit in order to be able to progress into true mortality, being subject to death, but also having the ability to know good from evil. It would be entirely accurate to say that we honor them to a far greater extent than we condemn them.

8. "Its path of progress lies in finding the middle way between the opposites. The only way to do this is to embark on the long journey of human evolution, willingly to open itself to all of its trials -- the pain, sorrow and death of terrestrial life. It is a phase that every kingdom in creation must pass through, and is the only way to move into higher realms, because nothing is given without merit."

"When Adam and Eve, symbolizing humanity, left the Garden of Eden, they did so by choice, leaving the comforts of a known existence for an insecure and probably treacherous future.... It is anything but a shameful act. It is the journey of the Hero, pure and simple."

We're talking Mormonism here. "There must needs be opposition in all things."

9. "The Jewel of Uncommon Price, and The Hymn of the Pearl."

This one hit me right between the eyes. Mormons have four sacred texts: The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and... The Pearl of Great Price! I was a little bit confused about who the your Price and his royal parents were in The Hymn of the Prince, but if they are who I think they are, the story is right along the lines of the LDS belief in God's Plan of Salvation. Could you explain this to me? Who is the Price and who were his parents?

Anyway, I'm always interested in finding parallels between my Church and ancient Christianity, and maybe I'm overdoing it in this brief analysis. But I'd be interested in hearing your comments on some of the teachings, etc. I've brought up.
Ok Katz, i'll try my best.

1. Yes, mormons do have different views of these subjects, but i also know that they differ greatly from Gnostic thought, for example, you believe in a personal physical God, we believe in an unknowable distant and metaphysical God.

2. Yes, the Gnostics talked with Jesus (or the Christ at least) long after his death, one of the best known documents received from the phantom Christ was Pistis Sophia, also called the Sophia of Jesus Christ.

3. Indeed, an apostasy driven mainly by greed for wealth and power, i believe.

4. We believe Jesus spoke mainly in riddles, and in a form that only people of Gnostic thought could truly understand, i don't know if Mormons also have that belief about themselves?

5. To the Christian Gnostics Jesus was only one of the 'children' of God known as the Aeons. He was the male counterpart to the Holy Sophia, she is the Wisdom of God, he is the logos/word of God.

6. Ascension of the spirit (which in Gnostic thought is technically different to the soul) to become one with the True God is the entire goal of Gnosticism, we believe it can only be achieved through Gnosis, which is an insight of the True God or enlightenment. Do the LDS church have anything similar to Gnosis in their belief system?

7. Yes, Gnostics view the Fall myth very differently. In fact Eve is a Gnostic hero, defying the arrogant creator god and bringing the power of Gnosis into mankind's reach.

8. This was the basis of that one on one debate i started, to Gnostics "nothing is given without merit", ie we receive salvation through our effort to acheive Gnosis. I saw the belief in the mortal sacrifice of Jesus as opposing this principle. It takes no effort to believe in another's sacrifice.

9. Ugh, i don't really like the Hymn of the Pearl, sometimes known as the Song of the Pearl. It is a very allegorical work. I believe the Prince is supposed to be both the Gnostic rescuing the pearl (gnosis), but at the sametime the son (not jesus, but the first human). The parents are God, and Sophia.

Hope that's some help. I haven't yet read the BoM (hopefully get here in a week or so katz :D ). After i have read it i might find more similarities.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hi, Halcyon.

Thanks for your comments. I guess there aren't as many similarities as I had assumed, just reading that one link.

4. We believe Jesus spoke mainly in riddles, and in a form that only people of Gnostic thought could truly understand, i don't know if Mormons also have that belief about themselves?
Yes, Jesus frequently spoke in parables, but we don't believe that we alone are able to understand them.

5. To the Christian Gnostics Jesus was only one of the 'children' of God known as the Aeons. He was the male counterpart to the Holy Sophia, she is the Wisdom of God, he is the logos/word of God.
Well, we do believe that God has a female counterpart, which is the ultimate heresy to most Christians. She probably has little in common with Sophia, though.

6. Ascension of the spirit (which in Gnostic thought is technically different to the soul) to become one with the True God is the entire goal of Gnosticism, we believe it can only be achieved through Gnosis, which is an insight of the True God or enlightenment. Do the LDS church have anything similar to Gnosis in their belief system?
Not if I'm understanding you correctly.

8. This was the basis of that one on one debate i started, to Gnostics "nothing is given without merit", ie we receive salvation through our effort to acheive Gnosis. I saw the belief in the mortal sacrifice of Jesus as opposing this principle. It takes no effort to believe in another's sacrifice.
I'd have to say that we believe in the importance of both faith in Jesus Christ and our own works.

9. Ugh, i don't really like the Hymn of the Pearl, sometimes known as the Song of the Pearl. It is a very allegorical work. I believe the Prince is supposed to be both the Gnostic rescuing the pearl (gnosis), but at the sametime the son (not jesus, but the first human). The parents are God, and Sophia.
Hmmm. This may relate to the LDS "Plan of Salvation." Maybe we can discuss it at some point.
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
thank's for clearing up that one for me too... i didnt think that they were that closley related...
 

opensoul7

Active Member
What is the connection of moderen gnostics to the past? what writtings or teachings is the modern belief based on ? Have there been gnostic teachers or writtings that have survived continuosly ? The only branch of gnosticism that I am familiar with and have read on were christian gnostics categorized as Cathars in southeren France .But they were wiped out during the Albigensian crusade by the Catholic church.And from the little I have read posted here believed completely different than modern Gnostics do.
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Gnostics doesnt really have a church, and its more of an individual journey than anything. There are writings of Cathars and Valentinians which are helpful, but other than that, there isnt a real good example of "modern gnostics"... The term just means a Gnostic living now... i think Halcyon just made it up. I've never heard the term "modern gnostics"
Anyway, any modern belief of gnostics is based on ALL the gnostic texts that have been found. newer or older, all are studied in the search for gnosis.

... i think.... Check with Halcyon on that one...
 

opensoul7

Active Member
James the persian ,
Gnostics and Christians have the same similarity then , because "Early Christians "could not agree on Christ either.So musch so that it took 325 years after the death of Christ for Christianity as a singular unity of belief to form in Catholic church.And only then under the leadership of a Pagan ruler by the name of Constantine.They had to vote under the iron fist of a pagan to come together on what they "believed". That was called the council of Nicaea.The Cathars and at least old gnostic belief was that a personal relationship with God was all you needed , personal gnosis(knowledge).They were dualistic , they believed God gave life the soul or divine spark, but that rex mundi the god of destruction created the universe.It was because rex mundi had created all matter that anything of the flesh or material was evil.They had men and women preachers called Perfecti.One of the Criticisms of the Cathars was that there teaching and story changed from one person to the next , it was not universal like the Catholic church was in it's belief.But since Gnosis was the key to there belief of course it would be different because no two people have the same relationship or Gnosis of God.They were humble vegetarians (they did eat fish , but only because they believed that fish reproduced a-sexually) that went to the bonfires singing and dancing.They never raised their hand in defence of themselves.The locals (catholic mostly)respected them so much that they hide them defended them ans gave their lives for them.All the gnostics ever did was have a different view of christianity than the Catholic church so they were all killed men women and children.
 
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