• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Gnostics need to be real

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Gnostics Need To Be Real | Gnostica

rant by Bro Jeremy Puma


One of the biggest problems with much of modern Gnosticism, in my humble opinion, is the crazy notion that somehow being a Gnostic means you get to make stuff up. Or, in other words, for some reason the idea has been propogated in certain Gnostic circles that if you claim you’re a Gnostic, you can disregard any recent scholarship on historical Gnosticism and just make up whatever you want and claim your personal “gnosis” as an excuse.


The fact of the matter is, a lot of preconceived notions about historical Gnosticism are being turned on their heads by modern scholarship, and when these notions are continually flogged by so-called Gnostics, it makes us all look out-of-touch and kind of disingenuous. Although the song remains the same regarding the dearth of evidence for any solid conclusions, some serious misconceptions about historical Gnosticism have become so ingrained that many modern Gnostics continue to use them as doctrinal points.


As examples, let’s address and hopefully shed some light on a few of these misconceptions:


- There was no monolithic Gnosticism fighting against some kind of monolithic Orthodoxy.

In reality, Christianity at the height of the Gnostic movement was likely as fragmented as the Gnostic sects. No monolithic Church was doing any more to “oppress” Gnostic viewpoints than the Gnostics were to oppress other Gnostic viewpoints (and yes, some of that was also going on).


- The Gnostics were not “protesting” or “rebelling” against established religion.

As illustrated very clearly by Michael Williams in Rethinking Gnosticism, the idea that Gnostic movements were rebelling against some kind of religious authority is contraindicated by the very Church Fathers who claimed the Gnostics were too *inclusive.*


- The Gnostics were not world-haters.

The real world-haters are the ones now celebrated by mainline Christians as the Desert Fathers, who were far more ascetic than 90% of the Gnostics.


- The Gnostics did not understand gnosis as a Buddhist-style enlightenment.

I’m as guilty as any for spreading this misconception, but even a cursory glance through the Nag Hammadi texts reveals that, to the historical Gnostics, gnosis is far more nuanced than epiphany, and includes ritual instruction into Mysteries and initiation into a tradition.

- The Gnostics did not believe that “personal experience” was more important than religious teaching.

Again, the question is a matter of actual evidence, and nothing really exists in the literature that supports this claim. Rather, personal experience was supposed to verify or bolster the religious teaching, and vice-versa.

- The Gnostics were dogmatic.

Again, a cursory glance through the literature establishes that the Gnostics were just as dogmatic as the average mainstream Christian sect at the time. The NHL texts are, at their root, a collection of dogmas. The third book of the Pistis Sophia contains a giant laundry list of dogmas for practicing Gnostics.


- There is virtually no solid evidence for a pre-Christian Gnosticism.

This has been proven again and again, but is one of the biggest sticking-points. This isn’t to say that there absolutely was not a pre-Christian Gnosticism, but literally no evidence exists that this is the case.

These are just a few examples. Just about every valued notion about Gnosticism held prior to the discovery of the Nag Hammadi Library has been exploded in recent years. Even the automatic assumption that many have that Mary Magdalene was Jesus’s fave has been called into question in a paper called “Rethinking the Gnostic Mary” by Prof. Stephen Shoemaker, which rather convincingly suggests that the Mary so often appearing with Jesus in the Gnostic literature is in fact Jesus’s mother, Mary of Nazareth, and not Mary Magdalene at all!
My point isn’t that these conclusions must be wholeheartedly embraced by modern Gnostics. My point is simply that modern Gnostic movements *must* acknowledge that they are modern Gnostic movements, with innovations for our modern society, which is fine. They must become comfortable with the idea that knowing history and embracing scholarship is not a bad thing, even when scholarship comes to a different conclusion than you.

Many original Gnostics were likely very literate people,
with a high regard for scholastics. Denying historical truths due to sentimentalism, romanticism or a desire for rebellion may feel good, but will only harm contemporary Gnosticism in the long run. If we want to be taken seriously instead of viewed as a bunch of people playing at church (and I include myself in this), Contemporary Gnostics need to check and cite their sources, keep up on the research, and underline their differences with historical Gnostics.

Religious innovation is a good thing. If historical Gnostics didn’t actually focus on Mary Magdalene, but your group does, that’s fine, as long as you’re honest with the history. As an example, I, personally, think that in many cases understanding gnosis as more of an enlightenment experience is fine in our contemporary society, but I’m also careful to underscore that the original Gnostics very likely saw it differently. There’s nothing wrong with that; it doesn’t detract from your path to embrace history. Ignoring scholarship because your “personal gnosis” tells you that the Gnostics did this or that thing isn’t just dishonest, its antithetical to what our forebears sought since the very beginning: a true comprehension of the inbreaking of the Pleroma into the World of Forms.
 

Requia

Active Member
- The Gnostics were dogmatic.

Again, a cursory glance through the literature establishes that the Gnostics were just as dogmatic as the average mainstream Christian sect at the time. The NHL texts are, at their root, a collection of dogmas. The third book of the Pistis Sophia contains a giant laundry list of dogmas for practicing Gnostics.

By this logic modern Gnostics are also dogmatic, as they use the same texts. Not that the argument makes sense for either group. Dogma won't ever be found within the primary holy texts of a religion, dogma is the attitude that surrounds the texts. It's the idea that those texts are the only ones that count, or that they are infallible, or that there are no alternative ways to interpret the texts.

This is not to say that the early Gnostics were not dogmatic, I have no evidence one way or the other, but this argument makes little sense.
 
I consider myself a modern Gnostic but I do not subscribe to any ancient Gnostic dogmas such as the ancient Gnostic Creation mythology of syzygies of innumerable aspects and angel names emanating from a central unknowable Source. What defines "Gnosticism" for me is the simple fact that I follow the Solitary Path of direct revelation and communion with God. My personal theology is therefore different in many respects to either classical Gnosticism or traditional (Pauline) Christianity yet share many basic points in common. This is the way it is for those of us who came to God via personal religious experience vs. intellectual decision to join an existing group mind set. Without freedom to find one's own way you are continually at the mercy of other minds not your own who's instructions were formulated by and for their spiritual relationship which cannot be yours and still be authentic to you. Gnosticism in its purest form is personal relationship with God and no two relationships are going to be the same. This is about as real as you can get with religious belief.
 

Requia

Active Member
I don't think you have any conflict with the OP, he's not talking about modern beliefs about religion but rather modern beliefs about ancient people.
 
The real world-haters are the ones now celebrated by mainline Christians as the Desert Fathers, who were far more ascetic than 90% of the Gnostics.

So, by concession, 10% of Gnostics were indeed world haters? That's not me trying to start an argument, but an honest question.

I've only read a little about Gnosticism in general, but wouldn't it be easier to deal with each of the Gnostic sects as their own distinct belief system. Lumping them together in order to attack them or defend them seems to open up a can of worms.
 

Requia

Active Member
He's not really attacking or defending Gnosticism, he's talking about modern Gnostic views of ancient Gnostics. (Though the idea that early Gnostics were world haters is one I've only ever heard from non Gnostics). I agree with him that modern Gnostics don't know much about the ancient Gnostics (I'd give specific examples but I don't know much), but a lot of his specific examples are... strange, they either don't make sense, or have little to do with his point.

But since he got banned here (and if the other religion forums he cross posts every one of his rants too have any sense, everywhere) I'm not expecting much in the way of answers.
 

indian tea

Purveyor of Rare Herbs
The post was by jeremy puma not the guy that was banned though....
there were lots fo groups back then, so I agree that I think it is difficult to make absolute statements
 
Last edited:

Blackheart

Active Member
Im not a Gnostic but I did begin to look into it. The problem I had which subsequently put me off is that I struggle to find scriptual evidence to support alot of what I was hearing on podcasts etc. I mean I obviously have access to the Nag Hammadi documents but they dont seem to correlate with the podcast version of the Gnostic faith. Is this the best I can hope for or is there something im missing?
 

SoulTraveler

Bell Curve Jumper
- The Gnostics did not believe that “personal experience” was more important than religious teaching.

Again, the question is a matter of actual evidence, and nothing really exists in the literature that supports this claim. Rather, personal experience was supposed to verify or bolster the religious teaching, and vice-versa.

- The Gnostics were dogmatic.

Again, a cursory glance through the literature establishes that the Gnostics were just as dogmatic as the average mainstream Christian sect at the time. The NHL texts are, at their root, a collection of dogmas. The third book of the Pistis Sophia contains a giant laundry list of dogmas for practicing Gnostics.

The problem I have as a practicing mystic is the tension that exists between the dogma, and experience. In my experience, you MUST jettison as much dogma as possible from your personal belief system or what you experience will be a manifestation of those beliefs. As a simple example, suppose someone believes that all nonphysical entities are 'monsters'. That person will perceive, and I mean completely, any nonphysical entity encountered as a monster. That's the way things work in that state. Obviously, that isn't good.

And there's another problem: the inherent contradiction between telling people to value direct personal experience while presenting them with dogma, or even the optional (but valued) beliefs of others. That is substituting belief for knowledge. That is not how to go about converting unknowns into knowns. If someone is going to have dogma before experience, they may as well join their local church.

Please correct me if I misunderstand Gnosticism. I just don't think that a belief system is the best starting point for knowledge. Experience is.
 

Requia

Active Member
Seems right, sort of. ;)

Cheese, or the person he was quoting, was talking about historical stuff (only without actually mentioning sources, so I have no idea if he was talking out his *** or not). Not talking about how it should be practiced today.
 

hhagar

New Member
yOU SAID cOLORED TEXT IS AN EYE SORE. i'VE NEVER SEEN TEXT THAT WAS NOT COLORED. i'M ASSUMEING YOU MEAN ANY COLOR BUT BLACK. bUT PERSONALLY i LIKE DIFFERENT COLORED TEXT. CERTAIN TEXT WITHIN OTHER TEXT THAT IS A DIFFERENT COLOR AND BOLD MAKES IT STAND OUT IN ORDER TO CALL ATTENTIOIN TO A PARTICULAR WORD OR GROUP OF WORDS.
 
Top