God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

This is the continuation is a discussion I was having with @ QuestioningMind on another thread.
We got off topic so I decided to start a new thread. Anyone is welcome to contribute their ideas if they are so inclined.

Trailblazer said: It IS an important message, but it is unrealistic to expect everyone to receive it. That happens over the course of time, not all at once. The delivery system is not flawed just because everyone has not received the message. You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.

QuestioningMind said: Apparently that's the case for EVERY religion. I've had Christians tell me after I read the bible that I'd received god's message, but I'm simply rejecting it. Muslims have said as much after I read the Koran, Hindus have said the same after I read the Vedas... now you've said it too. Yet when I read what you claimed were the most convincing messages from your religion, I found them to be just as vague and unconvincing as all of the other religions I've studied.

It is true that if you reject messages from any of the true religions, you are rejecting God’s message, because all of those messages were true. However they were also time-date stamped, so much of what they revealed is no longer pertinent to the age we now live in. The Spiritual teachings are eternal, but the social teachings and laws are not for this age, and the message is no longer needed in this day since it was intended for another age in history. In addition, those messages were not written by a Messenger of God, they were written by man on His behalf, and as such they are not exactly what the Messenger said. In addition to that, the religions themselves have been changed and corrupted by man over the course of time.

Yet when I read what you claimed were the most convincing messages from your religion, I found them to be just as vague and unconvincing as all of the other religions I've studied.

I do not know what messages you are referring to, but reading a few things I have posted is not the way to determine if a religion is actually the truth from God or not.

What is the flaw and who has the flaw; that is the hundred-dollar question. If religious believers believe they already have the truth from God and they refuse to look at a new message, whose fault is that? I think they are the ones who are flawed. I agree that those who are unaware that there is a new message are somewhat screwed, and that is why it is so important for Baha’is to get the message out. However, those people are not completely screwed because If they were really seeking a new religion they could find the message on the internet and contact the Baha’is in their area who are readily available to talk to seekers.

After reading this several times all I can conclude is that you're saying the 'flaw' is in a person ever believing that they already have the truth from god. Even if you're convinced that you have discovered god's TRUE messenger, you shouldn't accept it and instead continue to look for new messengers who might actually have the truth from god.

I can understand why you concluded that but that is not exactly what I am saying. There is no reason they should not believe they have the truth from God in their religion because they were probably raised in that religion and that is what they learned thus believed to be the truth. However, here is the caveat:

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.”

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Because all the major religions foretold that another one would come and fulfill the prophecies of their respective religions, they should be looking, or at least open, to a man who makes such a claim. This is particularly true of the Jews and Christians, as the Jews have been waiting for their Messiah for thousands of years, and of course we all know that Christians are waiting for the return of Christ. So if a man such as Bahaullah comes claiming to be the Messiah and the return of Christ, they should at least be willing to check Him out in order to determine if He is who He claims to be.

But shouldn't they ALSO be looking at all of the old messengers who claimed to have the truth of god as well? After all, the true messenger may have come 3000 years ago and you were never fortunate enough to have been exposed to their message.

The Messengers that came thousands of years ago were true Messengers, but as I said above the messages that they brought are not what humanity needs in this age. They should be concerned about what humanity needs now, but instead they cling to their older religious traditions because that is comfortable for them. The older religions do not have the answers to the serious problems humanity is facing NOW. If there is an All-Knowing God who cares about humans, don’t you think that God would know what humanity needs in this age and reveal that to humankind? I believe that is exactly what has happened.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

But why would anyone keep seeking a new religion if they're convinced that they've already found the TRUE religion? That's like saying that after you've determined that the statement 2 + 2 = 4 is TRUE, but you're going to continue to seek evidence that maybe 2 + 2 is ACTUALLY 9. Once someone has found an answer for a question, it's illogical to expect them to keep searching for an answer.

I like your logic and you just nipped it in the bud. Why indeed would they seek a new religion of they are convinced that their religion is the one TRUE religion? And therein lies the essential problem. With some exceptions, most people who hold a religious belief believe their religion is true, the only way, the best and the last religion God will ever reveal, so if course they would not be seeking another religion. It is only a small number of people who are open to the idea that God might have revealed a new religion, a religion that does not invalidate any of the religions of the past but rather fulfills the promises of their religion, as noted above.

So it seems to me that if it's just as easy for someone to convince themselves that religion A is true, when it actually isn't, as it is to convince themselves that religion F is true, when it is, THAT'S a huge flaw in the system. If someone picks the wrong religion it should be as evident as someone claiming 2 + 2 = 9. Otherwise it has virtually nothing to do with what religion is actually true, but rather on which religion a person if first introduced to and indoctrinated into. If we determined the truth of mathematical statements the way we determine the truth of religious claims then anyone taught that 2 + 2 = 9 would have just as reliable evidence as those who claim that 2 + 2 = 4.

You raise a valid point, but according to Baha’i beliefs, there is no WRONG religion, although there are religions whose messages and social teachings and laws are outdated. For example, do you believe that adulterers and homosexuals should be put to death, as the Torah teaches? Those ancient laws have been updated by Baha’u’llah who revealed a new Book of Laws with penalties that are pertinent to the age in which we live.

Once someone grasps the idea that there is only one true God and that God reveals different religions through different Messengers over the course of time, according to the ever-changing needs of humanity, called Progressive Revelation, the sky is the limit. Unfortunately most religious people are so mired in their own religious beliefs they cannot see the forest, they only see one tree. I always hope that an atheist might understand because at least atheists are logical and unbiased towards one particular religion, but hurdle for atheists is that they do not believe in a God that would use Messengers to establish religions.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

@ QuestioningMind

No, that does not make the system flawed because there are reasons most people won’t look into the evidence that has nothing to do with the quality of the evidence. The main reason people won’t look is because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. Secondly, if they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. Thirdly, if they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

I agree, it all comes down to the quality of the evidence. And when the evidence is based on the words of a supposed messenger from god, it's obvious that you get people who feel they have sufficient evidence to conclude that 2 + 2 = 9 or 2 + 2 = 3 or 2 + 2 = 1087. You on the other hand have concluded that 2 + 2 =4. Now, are you still STILL looking for evidence that maybe 2 + 2 =9 or 3 or 1087? If not, why not? Aren't you committing the same flaw that you claim the people who are attached to what they already believe are committing?

I do not have to look for evidence that shows that one of the other religions is TRUE, because I already believe that are all true, and that is the hundred-dollar difference between a Baha’i and a believer in the older religions, who believes that only their religion is true. Does it make sense to you that one of the older religions is the only true religion and all the other religions are false? For example, 29% of the world population is Christians. Would a loving and just God exclude 71% of the world population from knowing the truth about Him? Does it make sense to you that an older religion that does not even have any solutions to the world’s problems, what humanity needs I this age, is the one true religion?

The other very important point I would like to make is that the evidence that a religion is true should never be based solely on the words of a supposed messenger from God; I mean it should never be based upon His claims, because that would constitute circular reasoning. The real proof of Baha’u’llah is His own Person, His early life, but particularly in the 40 year Mission He completed, which can be read about in books that chronicled the history of the Baha’i Faith. What Baha’u’llah wrote is also part of the evidence; His social and spiritual teachings and the message He revealed that has the solutions for the problems the world faces in this age. The prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming and the predictions He made that came to pass are also part of the evidence.

And as an atheist I can tell you that it's not that I don't 'like the idea' of a messenger from god, but simply that all of the messages people have claimed are messages from god are all either so vague they could mean virtually anything or are no different than an accurate prediction.

I do not know which ‘messages’ you are referring to that are vague, but there is nothing vague about what Baha’u’llah wrote and there is nothing vague about His predictions. In fact all the predictions He made have come to pass just as He predicted. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Moreover, Baha’u’llah also made predictions that are coming to pass in the world right now, which can verified if we compare His Writings with what is going on all over the world right now. How do you think He could have known what was going to happen in the future over 150 years ago? Sure, there have been so-called prophets who have made accurate predictions, but show me any other man who has accurately predicted ALL the things Baha’u’llah has predicted?

The Baha’i Faith is not only for people who have not found another religion. It is applicable to everyone and everyone can look at a new religion – if they choose to. This is not a flaw in the method; it is a flaw in the religious people who won’t even consider a new religion because they are so mired in their older religions, and having been indoctrinated is no excuse because we all have free will to choose.

Again, why would people who are convinced they have found the RIGHT religion be searching for a new religion? And how is your belief that you're religion is true any different from their beliefs?

I think I already answered those questions above. In short, I do not believe that only MY religion is true. That is the primary way my religion is different from the other religions.

Are you STILL spending your life studying the words conveyed from the estimated 124,000 to 224,000 that individuals have claimed were prophets over the course of history to see if maybe one of THEM is the true messenger from god?

Why would I need to study the words of every self-proclaimed prophet to determine if they were true prophets? Do I need to look at every house in my city before I decide which one to purchase? Do I need to look at every man in town before I decide who I will marry?

Baha’u’llah revealed who the true Messengers of God of the past were, so once I accepted His claim to be the Messenger of God for this age, I accepted everything He wrote as the truth from God.

I mean, it would require many centuries for an individual to study and evaluate ALL of the claimed prophecies that have been made. So clearly there are thousands of prophetic claims you have not yet investigated, yet you appear to be making the same flawed mistake you accuse others of if you've concluded that this new messenger you found is the true messenger. You've freely chosen to stop focusing on all of the other possible prophets and concentrate exclusively on this new messenger.

There would be no reason for me to focus on ALL possible past Messengers, because if they did not even found a major religion there would be no reason for me to believe that were worth checking out. Moreover, I don’t even have to take Bahaullah’s word for it; I could determine who they were by looking at the empirical evidence, those being the religions in the world: BBC - Religion: Religions

There would only be a reason for me to look at any present claimants to be Messengers of God. And that would lead me straight to Baha’u’llah and nowhere else, because no other man has fulfilled the prophecies in the Bible for the return of Christ. As I recall, I posted some of the very specific prophecies He fulfilled, but t you never responded to that post, so I do not know if you read it.

It would not take many centuries to evaluate all the Bible prophecies and in fact that evaluation has already been completed by some Baha’is. The book that is most comprehensive is called Thief in the Night by William Sears. He studied the Bible prophecies for seven years and compared them to what happened before Baha’u’llah appeared and what happened during His life. Sears even went to the holy land for confirmation before he completed his book. Why would I need to reinvent the wheel when he already proved his case? I can read the same Bible he read and I can also read about the history of the Baha’i Faith to confirm his findings. It is all there in black and white for anyone who is a true seeker.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

@ QuestioningMind

Yes, you are dead on center, it is a huge flaw, but the flaw is in the agnostics or atheists who refuse to accept that God communicates via Messengers. God does not need the belief of people who refuse to look at His Messenger because rejecting the Messenger is akin to rejecting God.

Oh, I see, it's really so EASY! All god expects me to do is devote my entire existence, other than eating, sleeping, and defecating, to studying the words of at least 124,000 different supposed Messengers from God, the VAST majority of which will be absolutely false, and then determine which, if any, are REALLY providing messages from god. And since even spending every waking hour of every waking day it's impossible for any human being to thoroughly study even a fraction of the messages that are claimed to have come from god, no one should EVER accept ANY prophets words as being genuine, because that would be the flaw of refusing to consider the prophets of a new religion that might end up contradicting what the prophets of your current religion claim.

That is not a valid argument AT ALL, because as I clearly pointed out, there would be no reason for you to look at all the alleged messengers of God since it is easy to eliminate most of the false claimants right off the bat, leaving only a few who are worth checking out. As Jesus said, by their fruits you shall know them. If they were Messengers of the past and they did not even establish a major religion, why would you bother to check them out? There are a mere handful of Messengers who established a major religion and it would not be that difficult to check out their claims, and what you would discover is that they all made valid claims because they were all true Messengers of God.

Having addressed the past ages, let’s fast forward to contemporary history in order to determine if any Messengers of God have come. First we have to establish some criteria as to what we are looking for, and if we already determined that there were true Messengers in the past and those Messengers prophesied that another Messenger would come in the future and fulfill their prophecies, we would be looking for such an individual.

Are there any Messengers alive in the world today or any who were alive for the last two centuries that claimed/claim to be the return of Christ and the Messiah of all the other religions? If there are any such individuals you could easily determine if their claims were false by checking to see if they fulfilled the prophecies of those past religions. In so doing it becomes a slam dunk. Only Baha’u’llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the return of Christ. So why, after making that determination, would I waste precious time looking at all the other claimants? Moreover, and this is vital, if they were who they claimed to be, the return of Christ, they would have/should have presented the proof. Then where is it?

I certainly don't claim to know what the perfect method for a god being to distribute its message to human beings would be. However, all of the evidence indicates that sending human 'messengers' to spread his messenger has turned out to be seriously flawed.

The method itself is not flawed as far as revealing God because most people in the world believe in God because of a Messenger of God, so that method has been very successful.

According to these statistics, 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. Hindus and Buddhists comprise most of the rest of believers and they also have a Messenger (or messengers) they believe in. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are men who founded the religions, so they are Mediators between God and man. Sure, there are a few stragglers, believers who believe in God but not a Messenger; this comprises about 9% of the world population, but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.

It's led to a situation were at least 85% of people are convinced that they're already aware of god's message, when actually they're not. And virtually all the rest are simply incapable of recognizing vague prophetic messages as being anything close to verifiable evidence.

Unfortunately, that situation is unavoidable because of human free will that allows people to cling to the religions of the past. That is coupled with the fact that very few people are true seekers who are willing to do the work that is normally required to determine who the new Messenger was. This is why Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Now a small minority of people like you are tasked with spreading this important message to everyone else, people who are either convinced that they already know what messages god wants to convey via his messengers and have no need to look further or people who are incapable of viewing messages from god to be authentic.

Tell me about it. I have been working in these posts all day.

Why? Because I consider it important, more important than whether I got to go out for a bike ride on one of the last days of summer. I do not begrudge anyone my time, especially if they at least read it and give some consideration to what I wrote, but being a Baha’i who takes this task seriously is anything but easy. That is one reason many do not enter through the narrow gate, although there are other reasons.

If the message is truly important and the goal is to get the message to as many people as possible then the current method doesn't appear to be working.

That all depends upon what you mean by “working.” If by working you mean that everyone has recognized Baha’u’llah to date then it has not worked, but what reason do you have to believe that is God’s goal? After all, if God is doing the communicating, God would be the one who established the goal of that communication.

This short chapter is worth reading because it compares early Christianity with where the Baha’i Faith is now, in its early stages of growth.

WE MUST NOT BE DISCOURAGED BY THE SMALLNESS OF OUR NUMBERS

 

[chinu]

Trailblazer said: It IS an important message, but it is unrealistic to expect everyone to receive it. That happens over the course of time, not all at once. The delivery system is not flawed just because everyone has not received the message. You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.

Trailblazar said: Messages get received over the course of time.

Fine. But, question here is.. will the message still get received, if the receiver is not yet ready to receive it ? Isn't this like pouring water on a closed bottle ?

Trailblazar said: You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.
Question here is also the same.
Will the message still get received, if the receiver is not yet ready to receive it ? Isn't this like pouring water on the closed bottle ?

Its NOT rejecting, its like bottle NOT opened yet.

There's a very big difference between.. Rejecting VS NOT opened yet.

Conclusion: All answers are useless, until there's a question.

If you really want to do something, try to open that bottle in first place, or do something so that question may arise in that mind. Thereafter, pour the answer in it.

 

[Nimos]

This is the continuation is a discussion I was having with @ QuestioningMind on another thread.
We got off topic so I decided to start a new thread. Anyone is welcome to contribute their ideas if they are so inclined.

Hi Trailblazer, feel like I have read a lot of this before But that is not going to keep me away

The other very important point I would like to make is that the evidence that a religion is true should never be based solely on the words of a supposed messenger from God; I mean it should never be based upon His claims, because that would constitute circular reasoning. The real proof of Baha’u’llah is His own Person, His early life, but particularly in the 40 year Mission He completed, which can be read about in books that chronicled the history of the Baha’i Faith. What Baha’u’llah wrote is also part of the evidence; His social and spiritual teachings and the message He revealed that has the solutions for the problems the world faces in this age. The prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming and the predictions He made that came to pass are also part of the evidence.

For something to be worth anything in regards to being evidence, one need to be able to demonstrate them. If you can't they are merely claims.

If I tell you that Earth is a square and even write a book about it. Then it is not evidence for anything unless I can demonstrate each of the points, I claim to be evidence for a square Earth.

That means both what I say and what is written in the book. If I can't do that, then it is simply claims. The only thing you can say is evidence, is that the book is evidence for me making the claim that Earth is a square, it's not evidence for Earth actually being so.

You really get evidence and claims mixed up and what they are evidence for and what they are not. All the writings of Baha'u'llah is evidence for him having written them, not for the content being true and the same goes with his life, his person etc.

 

[Spirit of Light]

@ QuestioningMind

Yes, you are dead on center, it is a huge flaw, but the flaw is in the agnostics or atheists who refuse to accept that God communicates via Messengers. God does not need the belief of people who refuse to look at His Messenger because rejecting the Messenger is akin to rejecting God.

Oh, I see, it's really so EASY! All god expects me to do is devote my entire existence, other than eating, sleeping, and defecating, to studying the words of at least 124,000 different supposed Messengers from God, the VAST majority of which will be absolutely false, and then determine which, if any, are REALLY providing messages from god. And since even spending every waking hour of every waking day it's impossible for any human being to thoroughly study even a fraction of the messages that are claimed to have come from god, no one should EVER accept ANY prophets words as being genuine, because that would be the flaw of refusing to consider the prophets of a new religion that might end up contradicting what the prophets of your current religion claim.

That is not a valid argument AT ALL, because as I clearly pointed out, there would be no reason for you to look at all the alleged messengers of God since it is easy to eliminate most of the false claimants right off the bat, leaving only a few who are worth checking out. As Jesus said, by their fruits you shall know them. If they were Messengers of the past and they did not even establish a major religion, why would you bother to check them out? There are a mere handful of Messengers who established a major religion and it would not be that difficult to check out their claims, and what you would discover is that they all made valid claims because they were all true Messengers of God.

Having addressed the past ages, let’s fast forward to contemporary history in order to determine if any Messengers of God have come. First we have to establish some criteria as to what we are looking for, and if we already determined that there were true Messengers in the past and those Messengers prophesied that another Messenger would come in the future and fulfill their prophecies, we would be looking for such an individual.

Are there any Messengers alive in the world today or any who were alive for the last two centuries that claimed/claim to be the return of Christ and the Messiah of all the other religions? If there are any such individuals you could easily determine if their claims were false by checking to see if they fulfilled the prophecies of those past religions. In so doing it becomes a slam dunk. Only Baha’u’llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the return of Christ. So why, after making that determination, would I waste precious time looking at all the other claimants? Moreover, and this is vital, if they were who they claimed to be, the return of Christ, they would have/should have presented the proof. Then where is it?

I certainly don't claim to know what the perfect method for a god being to distribute its message to human beings would be. However, all of the evidence indicates that sending human 'messengers' to spread his messenger has turned out to be seriously flawed.

The method itself is not flawed as far as revealing God because most people in the world believe in God because of a Messenger of God, so that method has been very successful.

According to these statistics, 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. Hindus and Buddhists comprise most of the rest of believers and they also have a Messenger (or messengers) they believe in. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are men who founded the religions, so they are Mediators between God and man. Sure, there are a few stragglers, believers who believe in God but not a Messenger; this comprises about 9% of the world population, but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.

It's led to a situation were at least 85% of people are convinced that they're already aware of god's message, when actually they're not. And virtually all the rest are simply incapable of recognizing vague prophetic messages as being anything close to verifiable evidence.

Unfortunately, that situation is unavoidable because of human free will that allows people to cling to the religions of the past. That is coupled with the fact that very few people are true seekers who are willing to do the work that is normally required to determine who the new Messenger was. This is why Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Now a small minority of people like you are tasked with spreading this important message to everyone else, people who are either convinced that they already know what messages god wants to convey via his messengers and have no need to look further or people who are incapable of viewing messages from god to be authentic.

Tell me about it. I have been working in these posts all day.

Why? Because I consider it important, more important than whether I got to go out for a bike ride on one of the last days of summer. I do not begrudge anyone my time, especially if they at least read it and give some consideration to what I wrote, but being a Baha’i who takes this task seriously is anything but easy. That is one reason many do not enter through the narrow gate, although there are other reasons.

If the message is truly important and the goal is to get the message to as many people as possible then the current method doesn't appear to be working.

That all depends upon what you mean by “working.” If by working you mean that everyone has recognized Baha’u’llah to date then it has not worked, but what reason do you have to believe that is God’s goal? After all, if God is doing the communicating, God would be the one who established the goal of that communication.

This short chapter is worth reading because it compares early Christianity with where the Baha’i Faith is now, in its early stages of growth.

WE MUST NOT BE DISCOURAGED BY THE SMALLNESS OF OUR NUMBERS

God do not deliver flawed messaged its the hearing of the human that is flawed

 

[ppp]

If a perfect and omnipotent god wanted me to believe and understand his message perfectly, then he could deliver it in a way that I believe and understand perfectly. No matter how profoundly flawed or obstinate I might be.

Either he does not want me to believe and understand perfectly, or he is not a perfect and omnipotent god.

 

[stvdv]

Trailblazer said: It IS an important message, but it is unrealistic to expect everyone to receive it. That happens over the course of time, not all at once. The delivery system is not flawed just because everyone has not received the message. You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.

I see 3 options as regard to your important message:
a) Reject
b) Accept
c) Neither Reject nor Accept

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

If the message was coming from a person, group etc with the limitations of these people I would say the means of communication is fine.

As it comes from a god who loves us all, wants to save us, put us on the righteous path, etc. It's a very bad method of delivery.

It has left us wondering which one is right, god, Jesus, Mohammed, Bahal, and a host of others. His method of delivery isn't good enough for a god.

 

[PureX]

"Messengers" are irrelevant. We have no way of determining the source of their message.

All that matters is the value of the message itself, to us, and we each have to determine this for ourselves, regardless of how or from whom the message was received.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

"Messengers" are irrelevant. We have no way of determining the source of their message.

All that matters is the value of the message itself, to us, and we each have to determine this for ourselves, regardless of how or from whom the message was received.

And there lies the problem.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

God do not deliver flawed messaged its the hearing of the human that is flawed

Then your god isn't as clever as you say.
He would know we aren't getting the message loud and clear because he designed us and he is a god that love's us.
Or he's a figment of people's imagination.

You can't have it two ways, proclaiming your version of god is right, others are wrong and this is because god can't bother to get his message across.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Then your god isn't as clever as you say.
He would know we aren't getting the message loud and clear because he designed us and he is a god that love's us.
Or he's a figment of people's imagination.

You can't have it two ways, proclaiming your version of god is right, others are wrong and this is because god can't bother to get his message across.

Allah is correct to me, if others follow others, that is up to them.
The reason human beings has problems hearing God is because of our ego and ignorance.God can give the message to everyone, but humans got free will, and if a person turn away from God, that is not a problem for a God, if humans once again turn toward God, they will recieve the message again.

 

[PureX]

And there lies the problem.

Why is this a problem? Hopefully, we each hear what we need to hear when we need to hear it. And no human "messenger" can know to do that.

 

[Kenny]

Part 1

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.”

Yes... apparently they do.

Because all the major religions foretold that another one would come and fulfill the prophecies of their respective religions, they should be looking, or at least open, to a man who makes such a claim. This is particularly true of the Jews and Christians, as the Jews have been waiting for their Messiah for thousands of years, and of course we all know that Christians are waiting for the return of Christ. So if a man such as Bahaullah comes claiming to be the Messiah and the return of Christ, they should at least be willing to check Him out in order to determine if He is who He claims to be.

OK. However, what does one do when the person who claims to be the Messiah doesn't match the bill? Especially if they were warned that many would come that claim to be the Messiah but aren't?

At this time, from Christian scriptures and probably agreed by Jewish people, no one fits the bill.

The Messengers that came thousands of years ago were true Messengers, but as I said above the messages that they brought are not what humanity needs in this age. They should be concerned about what humanity needs now, but instead they cling to their older religious traditions because that is comfortable for them. The older religions do not have the answers to the serious problems humanity is facing NOW. If there is an All-Knowing God who cares about humans, don’t you think that God would know what humanity needs in this age and reveal that to humankind? I believe that is exactly what has happened.

I don't agree here. I find that scripture does fulfill what humanity needs in this age. Is love bygone? Is forgiveness no longer necessary? Is acceptance and adoption by God no longer a desire?

I found scripture helped me in raising children, living life, character building, financial counseling et al.

Could it be that people aren't looking or are predisposed that it is no longer relevant?

I like your logic and you just nipped it in the bud. Why indeed would they seek a new religion of they are convinced that their religion is the one TRUE religion? And therein lies the essential problem. With some exceptions, most people who hold a religious belief believe their religion is true, the only way, the best and the last religion God will ever reveal, so if course they would not be seeking another religion. It is only a small number of people who are open to the idea that God might have revealed a new religion, a religion that does not invalidate any of the religions of the past but rather fulfills the promises of their religion, as noted above.

I don't really agree with this.

"In total, about half of American adults have changed religious affiliation at least once during their lives. Most people who change their religion leave their childhood faith before age 24, and many of those who change religion do so more than once."

Faith in Flux

half is hardly "a small number".

Once someone grasps the idea that there is only one true God and that God reveals different religions through different Messengers over the course of time, according to the ever-changing needs of humanity, called Progressive Revelation, the sky is the limit.

I wouldn't agree here.

An example... there is one true story of Daniel Boone. As time passes, there are many stories that evolve embellishing the truth. The stories may have some truth in it, but it doesn't make the whole of their stories true.

So, IMV, there are religions that have evolved that have some truth in it, but that doesn't translate that their stories are completely true. By the nature of the differences in all religions, it would be impossible to hold that they are progressive and that they are all true.

One cannot believe that reincarnation is true when you believe there is just this life. You cannot believe in multiple gods if you believe in one God. You cannot believe that you will be in the Buddha realm when you believe you will be on this earth.

 

[Vinayaka]

If God wanted to deliver a message, surely he could just turn on the secret microphone in everyone's ear simultaneously, introduce himself, or herself, and tell everyone the same message. If he wanted to prove he was God, he should say he's gonna switch two large building's location from opposite sides of the planet, and just do it. Or he could volunteer to go into one of his 'messengers', get shot by a 300 rifle firing squad with everyone loaded, then have the body thrown into boiling HCl, and then come up, smiling ... "See, I told you I was God."

After all, he is God, isn't he? He is all-powerful after all. That would just be a trivial thing to him, right?

 

[columbus]

God do not deliver flawed messaged its the hearing of the human that is flawed

And who "designed" humans that way?

Why not create humans with better hearing? Even if He created flawed humans in the past, we die off every few decades anyway. He could do better. But He keeps creating humans who aren't that different from apes and other amoral creatures.

If Almighty God cared about humans....

The conclusion I've come to is that God doesn't care.

Tom

 

[Nova2216]

In the first century Jesus spoke words to the apostles alone (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13) (Heb.1:1-3) (Jn 17:8,10).

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Jn 14:26)

We learn in (2Tim.3:16,17) the Lords revelation was COMPLETE (perfect). (James 1:25)

We learn from (2Peter 1:3) that men in the first century were given all things pertaining to life and godliness.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,

(Deut.4:2) (1Cor.4:6) (Rev. 22:18,19)

Since they received ALL TRUTH in the first century there is no reason to be looking for more revelation.

If the above information is NOT TRUE, then none of the word of God cannot be trusted.

 

[columbus]

If the above information is NOT TRUE, then none of the word of God cannot be trusted.

I don't have such a limited opinion of God.
Tom

 

[Nova2216]

I don't have such a limited opinion of God.
Tom

That is why there are 1000s of denominations.

People do not believe and follow (1Cor.1:10) (Phil. 3:16-19).

I am limited by (Deut.4:2) (1Cor.4:6) (Rev.22:18,19) (Lev. 10:1-3).