God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[CG Didymus]

I read those immediately -- bad God!

So why does the God depicted in the Bible have to be real? Why can't he be mythical? But even if you say he is real, some of those things he said and did I would hope you'd say are mythical.

 

[Trailblazer]

So why does the God depicted in the Bible have to be real? Why can't he be mythical? But even if you say he is real, some of those things he said and did I would hope you'd say are mythical.

I believe that the God depicted in the Bible is real because Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures, but I believe that much of the OT was the writings of men, stories about God, so I do not necessarily believe God did all the things the OT says He did. Mind you, Baha'is are going to have differing viewpoints on this, so some might believe God did those things.

I just posted this to a poster on my forum who has the same kinds of questions:

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl was praised and recommended by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and has been justifiably called the most learned and erudite Bahá'í scholar [16]

Regarding the Old Testament, Fadl said that it contained two types of teaching: a) revelation from God, such as the 10 commandments of Moses, the Psalms of David and the books of the Prophets, and b) historical information, such as the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation."[17]

A Baháí View of the Bible

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Atheists never give me a direct answer to the following question. I ask them: If there was a God wouldn't God know more than any human about *the best way* to deliver messages to humans in order to accomplish His objectives? They cannot answer that without admitting that, logically speaking, an All-Knowing God would know more than they know if such as God existed.

So god thinks the present method of delivering messages is the best one.

The present method isn't working very well so is there a better one?

Reveal himself to the leaders of all the empires at the time with the same message would be a better way. Because the continual revelations to nobodies are easily ignored.

 

[Trailblazer]

So god thinks the present method of delivering messages is the best one.

God must think so because that is the method He uses.

The present method isn't working very well so is there a better one?

Who says it isn't working very well, according to whose standards?

Reveal himself to the leaders of all the empires at the time with the same message would be a better way. Because the continual revelations to nobodies are easily ignored.

Thta is exactly what God did, He revealed Himself to all the leaders of all the empires at the time with the same message:

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[CG Didymus]

Regarding the Old Testament, Fadl said that it contained two types of teaching: a) revelation from God, such as the 10 commandments of Moses, the Psalms of David and the books of the Prophets, and b) historical information, such as the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation."[17]

If it's not all true, like the literalist Christians say, then I don't think any of is necessarily true. But there will always be the prophecies. Even with them there are the Jew, Christians and Baha'is that interpret them different.

So my opinion of the 10 Commandments... not necessarily revelation. They are mixed in with historical stories and then the six hundred plus laws sound more like people made them up not God. The Psalms? Religious poetry. The Prophets? Who wrote the stories? Most sound like they were written by someone else, not the prophet. Some, like Daniel have historical things added in that include him being thrown to the lions but not harmed, his friends thrown into a furnace but not burned. Then Jonah, he refuse to deliver a message to the people of Nineveh and gets swallow by a big fish. The Historical stories are mixed with God's miracles. Like where God stop the Sun in the sky for Joshua.

All of it is inspiring and full of "truth" for Bible-believers including the Historical stories. So where do we draw the line on what is truly from God and what came from people. And that carries over to the NT also. That's why I ask Baha'is about the miracles of Jesus. Baha'is have said that the healing of the blind met those that were "spiritually" blind. I don't believe that is what the writers meant at all. I think they meant it as being a physically blind person had their sight restored by Jesus. For a Christian, they take this as being literally true and "proof" that Jesus was who he said he was, The Messiah and for a lot of them part of the Trinity.

For them is has to be all true. For Baha'is, you really don't need it at all. Like you say, you've got new teachings that makes anything taught in the Bible, even if totally true, irrelevant. I don't need any of it to be true at all, and if not true, my best guess as to what the Bible is... is that it is embellished, mythical stories. Which could very well include their God being mythical too.

This thread seems to be finally slowing down, so I'll see you on some other one.

 

[CG Didymus]

So god thinks the present method of delivering messages is the best one.

The present method isn't working very well so is there a better one?

Reveal himself to the leaders of all the empires at the time with the same message would be a better way. Because the continual revelations to nobodies are easily ignored.

If Aliens know to say, "Take me to your leader." And, allegedly, God did take out some leaders and/or showed them his power... Nebuchadnezzar and the Pharaoh And, in a way, God is showing us his power and how pissed off at us he is by having us go through world wars, climate change, pandemics, and other trials and tribulations. He, allegedly, is going to make it so bad that we will turn to the Baha'is for our salvation... or, as Christians say, Jesus returns and shows himself to all people.

 

[Trailblazer]

If it's not all true, like the literalist Christians say, then I don't think any of is necessarily true. But there will always be the prophecies. Even with them there are the Jew, Christians and Baha'is that interpret them different.

So my opinion of the 10 Commandments... not necessarily revelation. They are mixed in with historical stories and then the six hundred plus laws sound more like people made them up not God. The Psalms? Religious poetry. The Prophets? Who wrote the stories? Most sound like they were written by someone else, not the prophet. Some, like Daniel have historical things added in that include him being thrown to the lions but not harmed, his friends thrown into a furnace but not burned. Then Jonah, he refuse to deliver a message to the people of Nineveh and gets swallow by a big fish. The Historical stories are mixed with God's miracles. Like where God stop the Sun in the sky for Joshua.

All of it is inspiring and full of "truth" for Bible-believers including the Historical stories. So where do we draw the line on what is truly from God and what came from people. And that carries over to the NT also. That's why I ask Baha'is about the miracles of Jesus. Baha'is have said that the healing of the blind met those that were "spiritually" blind. I don't believe that is what the writers meant at all. I think they meant it as being a physically blind person had their sight restored by Jesus. For a Christian, they take this as being literally true and "proof" that Jesus was who he said he was, The Messiah and for a lot of them part of the Trinity.

For them is has to be all true. For Baha'is, you really don't need it at all. Like you say, you've got new teachings that makes anything taught in the Bible, even if totally true, irrelevant. I don't need any of it to be true at all, and if not true, my best guess as to what the Bible is... is that it is embellished, mythical stories. Which could very well include their God being mythical too.

This thread seems to be finally slowing down, so I'll see you on some other one.

I do not think in terms of black and white, true or not true. I think there is truth to be found in all the scriptures and it is our job to determine what is true, if we want to know. For me, it does not matter if the Bible stories are true or not, since that is in the past. The same applies to religions such as Hinduism which is much older.

Life is short, time is limited, so I focus on the present and look towards the future. Religion was never a big interest of mine in college, nor was history. I studied geography and later psychology. I am much more interested in people and how they think and interact than I am in religion.

I posted on a few threads recently, and you can see those in my Profile.

I am going to start a new thread entitled What convinced me that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God because that was requested by @ Left Coast some time ago but I have been waiting till this thread died down and I have time to answer posts. I do not want my new thread to be about me producing evidence for Baha’u’llah because I have already been down that road on this forum too many times and it leads nowhere.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

God must think so because that is the method He uses.

Who says it isn't working very well, according to whose standards?

Thta is exactly what God did, He revealed Himself to all the leaders of all the empires at the time with the same message:

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

I answered in my next post.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

God must think so because that is the method He uses.

Who says it isn't working very well, according to whose standards?

Thta is exactly what God did, He revealed Himself to all the leaders of all the empires at the time with the same message:

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

So god wants fake messengers confusion and to see so many not getting it's message.

It could send the message direct to the leaders not through nobodies who get ignored.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

If Aliens know to say, "Take me to your leader." And, allegedly, God did take out some leaders and/or showed them his power... Nebuchadnezzar and the Pharaoh And, in a way, God is showing us his power and how pissed off at us he is by having us go through world wars, climate change, pandemics, and other trials and tribulations. He, allegedly, is going to make it so bad that we will turn to the Baha'is for our salvation... or, as Christians say, Jesus returns and shows himself to all people.

We are assuming god loves us, wants every one to follow it under one religion, etc. He could want the present confusion, wars, genocide, etc. Because it uses a method that brings the wars, genocide, confusion, etc.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

If there is a god it must be sitting back and laughing at all the wars, genocide, confusion, fake prophets, fake religions, hate that religion has caused because it can't be bothered to get a single message across to the majority. Or maybe as some argue it is because it wants the present situation.

 

[Trailblazer]

So god wants fake messengers confusion and to see so many not getting it's message.

I cannot say I know what God wants, but I assume God does not want confusion. However, that cannot be avoided as long as humans have free will which means that there will be fake messengers... It is our responsibility to differentiate between the fakes and the real Messengers and there is a method whereby we can do that.

It could send the message direct to the leaders not through nobodies who get ignored.

How do you think that God could do that? God is not a man who can deliver messages.

What do you think would happen if a message landed on the desk of the kings and rulers and it was signed "God."
Do you think any of the kings and rulers would believe that it came directly from God?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I cannot say I know what God wants, but I assume God does not want confusion. However, that cannot be avoided as long as humans have free will which means that there will be fake messengers... It is our responsibility to differentiate between the fakes and the real Messengers and there is a method whereby we can do that.

It must see what this method of sending messages is producing. So if it sees it, it must want what it's producing. And our inability to tell the difference between fake and real ones. For 4,000 years or more.

How do you think that God could do that? God is not a man who can deliver messages.

What do you think would happen if a message landed on the desk of the kings and rulers and it was signed "God."
Do you think any of the kings and rulers would believe that it came directly from God?

So how does he deliver them to the messengers?

It sees it's messengers ignored by leaders and doesn't change the method, so it must want this outcome. It's been going on for over 4,000 years.

Or all the messengers are dreamers, imagineers, fakes, conmen, etc.

 

[Trailblazer]

If there is a god it must be sitting back and laughing at all the wars, genocide, confusion, fake prophets, fake religions, hate that religion has caused because it can't be bothered to get a single message across to the majority. Or maybe as some argue it is because it wants the present situation.

I do not know what God is thinking of doing, nobody does, but I doubt God is laughing.

Have you ever heard that God is patient? That is in the Bible. So God is probably patiently waiting for more people to recognize Baha'u'llah and thereby all the confusion will end.

Patience is not a quality all humans have, although some do.
Most people unrealistically expect that all the misunderstandings of people of the older religions would be magically cleared up as son as Baha'u'llah came to clear it up, but it does not work that way, mainly because most people either do not know about Baha'u'llah, or if they know, they have rejected Him. There is no way God can be blamed for that rejection since we all have free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Paul, All I got was what I wrote. Did you have a response?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I do not know what God is thinking of doing, nobody does, but I doubt God is laughing.

Have you ever heard that God is patient? That is in the Bible. So God is probably patiently waiting for more people to recognize Baha'u'llah and thereby all the confusion will end.

Patience is not a quality all humans have, although some do.
Most people unrealistically expect that all the misunderstandings of people of the older religions would be magically cleared up as son as Baha'u'llah came to clear it up, but it does not work that way, mainly because most people either do not know about Baha'u'llah, or if they know, they have rejected Him. There is no way God can be blamed for that rejection since we all have free will.

It's been patient for 4,000 years or more. I think if it exists it's not sending messages to anyone and fakes, charlatans, dreamers, conmen invent them. Or god must want the outcome.

You can't claim patience for a god that loves us and wants us to follow him.

He is all-knowing, all-seeing etc.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Paul, All I got was what I wrote. Did you have a response?

Responded with my beliefs. It's all-knowing, all-seeing so must want this situation.

Are you claiming it knows the mess going on and does nothing but wants a different outcome?

 

[Trailblazer]

It must see what this method of sending messages is producing. So if it sees it, it must want what it's producing.

Why do you assume that God wants this? God allowing it is not the same as God wanting it.

And our inability to tell the difference between fake and real ones. For 4,000 years or more.

We have the ability to differentiate between the fakes and the real Messengers. If we did not have that ability, nobody would have ever recognized the real Messengers, but most people have recognized one or more of them, which is proof that we all have that ability.

So how does he deliver them to the messengers?

God speaks to them through the Holy Spirit, but that is not something we can comprehend, as I told you in the other thread.

It sees it's messengers ignored by leaders and doesn't change the method, so it must want this outcome. It's been going on for over 4,000 years.

Again, you cannot assume that God wants this outcome simply because God allows this outcome. God allowed it because God honors human free will.

Since God is All-Knowing, God knows that it will all work out eventually, according to His Purpose, after everyone recognizes Baha'u'llah.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it...

What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”
The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 116-117

God’s Purpose

I see no value in talking about past history, because it cannot be changed. Suffice to say all that happened was leading up to the present age, and there was a reason for it. All that was preparing the way for the coming of Baha'u'llah and the new age in which we now live. Moreover, God is All-Knowing, so God knew all that would happen and allowed it to happen because it was part of His Plan. From our human perspective it looks awful, but that is because we are not All-Knowing and we cannot see into the future.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's been patient for 4,000 years or more. I think if it exists it's not sending messages to anyone and fakes, charlatans, dreamers, conmen invent them. Or god must want the outcome.

I addressed that in a previous post. Just because God allows an outcome does not mean God wants that outcome.
God allows the outcome humans create because God honors human free will.

You can't claim patience for a god that loves us and wants us to follow him.

Why not? It is God who has to be patient with humans, not the other way around.