God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, and no loss for God and Baha'u'llah. They tried to show us. We are just too flawed to listen. Now God will have to darn near destroy the Earth again to make us see that he is real. Wait, isn't that kind of proving that he is real to all people? But causing bad things to happen us all, including some Baha'is probably, is the best why to "prove" that he is real? He couldn't just say something? I mean directly, not through a go-between.

You seem to think God and Baha'u'llah have a need for us.

I know we have answered your question many times about why God does not talk directly to Humanity, but via a Messenger.

The messenger was created to endure, this is no better shown than in the Fire Tablet. Fire Tablet

Baha'u'llah, in this tablet, asks many things of God, much like when Jesus was on the cross and asked of God why he had forsaken him.

Then Gods reply is given -

"O Supreme Pen, We have heard Thy most sweet call in the eternal realm: Give Thou ear unto what the Tongue of Grandeur uttereth, O Wronged One of the worlds!

Were it not for the cold, how would the heat of Thy words prevail, O Expounder of the worlds?

Were it not for calamity, how would the sun of Thy patience shine, O Light of the worlds?

Lament not because of the wicked. Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds.

How sweet was Thy dawning on the horizon of the Covenant among the stirrers of sedition, and Thy yearning after God, O Love of the worlds.

By Thee the banner of independence was planted on the highest peaks, and the sea of bounty surged, O Rapture of the worlds.

By Thine aloneness the Sun of Oneness shone, and by Thy banishment the land of Unity was adorned. Be patient, O Thou Exile of the worlds.

We have made abasement the garment of glory, and affliction the adornment of Thy temple, O Pride of the worlds.

Thou seest the hearts are filled with hate, and to overlook is Thine, O Thou Concealer of the sins of the worlds.

When the swords flash, go forward! When the shafts fly, press onward! O Thou Sacrifice of the worlds.

Dost Thou wail, or shall I wail? Rather shall I weep at the fewness of Thy champions, O Thou Who hast caused the wailing of the worlds."

That is a hard pill to swallow, would you not agree? How would you like the path offered above? Baha'u'llah has also said, how many would choose that path, unless they are of God!

Baha'u'llah then answers the above with this;

"Verily, I have heard Thy call, O All-Glorious Beloved; and now is the face of Bahá flaming with the heat of tribulation and with the fire of Thy shining word, and He hath risen up in faithfulness at the place of sacrifice, looking toward Thy pleasure, O Ordainer of the worlds.

O ‘Alí-Akbar, thank thy Lord for this Tablet whence thou canst breathe the fragrance of My meekness, and know what hath beset Us in the path of God, the Adored of all the worlds.

Should all the servants read and ponder this, there shall be kindled in their veins a fire that shall set aflame the worlds." Bahá’u’lláh

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

There were many official letters written warning America, this is but one.

So, Shoghi was a serial threatener, blackmailer, scare-crow!

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Now I have some questions for you:

1. Why should the Baha'is or the Baha'i Faith have all the information about all the religions that preceded it?

Because they claim to be the fulfillment of all of them.

No, we claim to fulfill the prophecies of the past religions, there is a difference. So at most, we would know how Baha’u’llah fulfilled the prophecies, not every have all the information about all the religions that preceded us. There is no reason we have to know all that, as we have our own religion to learn about, and that is an big enough job.

2. Why does it matter to you so much what all those older religions taught?

To see if the Baha'i concept of a progression of religions makes sense. For me, it doesn't. More likely people invented their Gods and their religion.

I do not think you understand what progressive revelation means. Until you do you will remain hung up on this issue.

3. Do you think that their teachings and laws are pertinent to this age?

No, because I think the religious leaders in that culture made those laws up and told the people that their God did. And Baha'i laws I doubt will be successful. People will break them and Baha'i will need enforcers to impose the laws on the people.

I think you are projecting your own feelings about those laws onto other people. Moreover, the bulk of Baha’i laws are just between the person and God, and require no enforcement. I often forget my daily Obligatory Prayer and nobody is coming after me.

4. Do you really think it is possible to reconcile all those religions with the Baha'i Faith?

I believe the Baha'is try to, but they don't know enough or explain enough about those other religions.

No, we are not trying to do that, you are. We cannot reconcile religions that are different from each other.

5. Why do you think it is necessary to reconcile all those religions with the Baha'i Faith?

If the Baha'i Faith is right. Baha'is should be able to show how all religions came from one God and are a continuation of the same spiritual message with only "social" laws being changed.

We can show that.

6. Do you think you can prove or disprove the Baha'i Faith by looking at all those religions?

To me, things don't add up. So why believe he is the return of every promised one of every religion? And his laws, I don't think will bring a perfect peaceful world. Baha'is still say that the governments of the world should rise up and put down any rebellions.

If you actually believed that Bahaullah was the return of every promised one of every religion, none of that would matter to you, because you would realize that your opinionis just an opinion and you cannot know more than God.

And since we have examples of other religions becoming corrupt and forcing their people into obedience, there is a good chance that the same thing could happen with a Baha'i government.

It is not logical or fair to judge a new religion according to what has happened in the past, what former religious leaders have done. This is a completely new age, a new religious cycle. And as Jesus said, you cannot put new wine in old wine sacs lest they burst.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, I do not believe that the Holy spirit lives inside of the bodies of anyone, not even the Messengers.

I see the spirit is what fires the electrical impulse that activates the brain. For a Messenger it is the Holy Spirit, which contains all knowledge, which is the beginning and the end. For us it is the human spirit, which we need the Spirit of Faith to connect to the Holy Spirit.

It could be seen much like the Avatar scene when connection is made with the tree @CG Didymus

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, Shoghi was a serial threatener, blackmailer, scare-crow!

No, a hardworking selfless servant offering to the world the path to Love and Unity and in his anguish of our rejection, informing us of what our choices would bring upon our own selves.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Were talking about supposed spiritual truth here. Lots of people are lying or mistaken. Of course not you or your guy.

I believe they were mistaken, but not my guy.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, a hardworking selfless servant offering to the world the path to Love and Unity and in his anguish of our rejection, informing us of what our choices would bring upon our own selves.

Oh, 'Wiser than thou'. Smart Alec, unsolicited advice, much like his great grandpa who wrote to the heads of States. 'Accept my great grandpa, or otherwise ..'

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh, superwise - 'I know better than you' type. 'Accept my great grandpa, or otherwise ..'

Or the type that 100% commits their life to helping others and does not need approval or support in choosing that path

In the end I see we judge our own selves with our response and critiques of such wonderful lives, without any idea of the person they were, the issues and injustices they have faced.

I have got used to that though. It is most likely because I have said to much, feeding unfounded remarks.

Regards Tony

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

The Messengers from God are born of a different Spirit than we are.

This is why the Bible talks about being born again and many faiths have practices that try to transcend our human Nature and find our Divine Nature.

From what I have found to date, creation has come into being from the Holy Spirit, given by God and which the Messenger is Born of. I see when science studies this following tablet, then the force that binds creation may be found, and how we can use that force, will guide the exploration of the universe in the future. Tablet of the Universe

How they communicate has been recorded. Words are not needed as it is Spiritual vision and Inspiration. As the Holy Spirit they are made of is eternal, they can source all Truth, they know the beginning and know the end, they know all our thoughts and all our actions past, present and future. As such the guidance given is to foster our unity and warn of what is faced if we do not choose the advice.

This is a link to a small talk on the topic of spiritual communication.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 88-89

Those who meet the Messengers find out first hand how communication of the Spirit unfolds, such as this;

"... It is the language of the spirit which speaks to God. When, in prayer, we are freed from all outward things and turn to God, then it is as if in our hearts we hear the voice of God. Without words we speak, we communicate, we converse with God and hear the answer. … All of us, when we attain to a truly spiritual condition, can hear the Voice of God... " (from a talk reported by Miss Ethel J. Rosenberg).

Big topic, as this is what Faith is all about.

Regards Tony

You just wrote a wall of text to avoid answering my question.

How are these Messengers from god communicating with god?

Because unless god is telling them what to preach they are just making it up to suit themselves.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

How can you know what their intent was?
I do not think we can know that. There might have been another reason that fictional stories were told.

Because that's what happened.

They continually told people what their imaginary god wanted them to do, which was to the benefit of the leaders.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

People ask for proof of Baha'u'llah, constantly....
What us going on in America right now ALONE is proof because it was all predicted 150 years ago..
Are people really that blind?
Nuff said.

People have been predicting the End of the World for at least 2,000 years. Even people who said it would happen on such and such a day. To date, it hasn't happened. Are you really that blind?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You just wrote a wall of text to avoid answering my question.

How are these Messengers from god communicating with god?

Because unless god is telling them what to preach they are just making it up to suit themselves.

With that reply, It appears you were not after an answer to your question.


Regards Tony

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

That is very easy to say after the fact. Remember Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi offered great detail, before the facts.

Do not forget those that persecuted and banished Baha'u'llah did so because they could not prove Him wrong, all He said, that they thought they could use to show him false, soon turned against them when they found he had quoted a source they did not know about, or had predicted what would happen.

If the greatest enemies of Baha'u'llah could not find him false in word and claim, then why should we be trying to do that? If what Baha'u'llah offered is true, why have we not chosen unity and peace?

This is where faith is up to each of us, this is the judgement that is in all the Holy books, it is our response that defines us in this life.

Regards Tony

Unity and peace needs people with a lot of guns to keep them safe.

Only a child believes the world can live in peace and then it's only the world of that child that's peaceful Because some will seek to exploit the weak for their own gain.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

That all depends upon what you are reading.

I'm reading science not the babblings of an uneducated Iranian fool who thinks we can all live in peace.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Because sadly, to date most people either do not know about Baha'u'llah or if they know they have rejected Him.

Not a very good messenger then.

 

[Trailblazer]

People have been predicting the End of the World for at least 2,000 years. Even people who said it would happen on such and such a day. To date, it hasn't happened. Are you really that blind?

The Christians got that wrong.....
The Bible does not say the end of the world, it says the end of an age... BIG difference.

What Baha'u'llah predicted is related to the end of the old age and the beginning of the new age and it is happening right now. The old world order is dying and a new world order is rising in its stead. Are you really that blind?

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

 

[Trailblazer]

Not a very good messenger then.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unity and peace needs people with a lot of guns to keep them safe.

All the best with that.

Goodbye.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm reading science not the babblings of an uneducated Iranian fool who thinks we can all live in peace.

Your choice.
I do not have to choose because I can read both.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá said:

I have spoken to you of some of the principles of Bahá’u’lláh: The Search after Truth and The Unity of Mankind. I will now explain the Fourth Principle, which is The Acceptance of the Relation between Religion and Science.

There is no contradiction between true religion and science. When a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere superstition: that which is contrary to knowledge is ignorance.

How can a man believe to be a fact that which science has proved to be impossible? If he believes in spite of his reason, it is rather ignorant superstition than faith. The true principles of all religions are in conformity with the teachings of science.

The Unity of God is logical, and this idea is not antagonistic to the conclusions arrived at by scientific study.

All religions teach that we must do good, that we must be generous, sincere, truthful, law-abiding, and faithful; all this is reasonable, and logically the only way in which humanity can progress.

All religious laws conform to reason, and are suited to the people for whom they are framed, and for the age in which they are to be obeyed........

It is impossible for religion to be contrary to science, even though some intellects are too weak or too immature to understand truth.

God made religion and science to be the measure, as it were, of our understanding. Take heed that you neglect not such a wonderful power. Weigh all things in this balance.

Paris Talks, pp. 141-142, 145

From: FOURTH PRINCIPLE—THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELATION BETWEEN RELIGION AND SCIENCE

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

The Christians got that wrong.....
The Bible does not say the end of the world, it says the end of an age... BIG difference.

What Baha'u;llah predicted is related to the end of the old age and the beginning of the new age and it is happening right now. The old world order is dying and a new world order is rising in its stead. Are you really that blind?

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

End of ages have been happening to Man for the last 4,000 years.

Stone Age
Bronze Age
Iron Age
Romans,
Dark Ages

Right the way up till today when we are in the age of travelling in space. So no great act in predicting the end of another one. Where does Baha predict the end of America?