God and Free will

[Estro Felino]

This thread is for meditating upon the power of free will.
I guess that free will is what makes man the most powerful being ever. Certainly even more powerful than God, potentially, I dare say.
Because man can use free will to create lots of marvelous things (electricity, planes), but he can destruct with the same strength (atomic bombs, for example).

I don't think that God has been fair, in giving humans free will.
He has thrown all the responsibility to man, so now humans are responsible for all that they do on Earth. And their actions will be indelibly carved in history forever.

That's why using free will is very dangerous. And still people use it in a destructive way.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

1- No one can surpass God's omnipotence.

2-Free will is God's apparatus to test us with in the playgrounds of life.

3-We might be unfair to each other while we are alive, but we will be judged, rewarded, and punished accordingly in the hereafter and everything will be set straight.

 

[Estro Felino]

1- No one can surpass God's omnipotence.

2-Free will is God's apparatus to test us with in the playgrounds of life.

3-We might be unfair to each other while we are alive, but we will be judged, rewarded, and punished accordingly in the hereafter and everything will be set straight.

I absolutely agree on points two and three. As for point one...well...I have to be frank. Man is the only one on Earth who is capable of changing the world into a better place. God is not capable of that, because he chose to leave this task to man, when he gave him free will.

Man has infinite potentialities to do good things. So man is omnipotent.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I absolutely agree on points two and three. As for point one...well...I have to be frank. Man is the only one on Earth who is capable of changing the world into a better place. God is not capable of that, because he chose to leave this task to man, when he gave him free will.

Man has infinite potentialities to do good things. So man is omnipotent.

Giving someone free will does not mean you choose to leave everything to them and go away. God shows his power to us every day of our life. Sometimes we choose to see it and sometimes we don't.
Man's capacity and potential is limited, very limited. If man was omnipotent he would for example cheat death, but he can't. God can simply take his life using a speck (virus) that man can't even see (God can take man's life even without that).

 

[Quintessence]

Do you consider yourself an autotheist, Hay85?

 

[Estro Felino]

Do you consider yourself an autotheist, Hay85?

Of course not. I believe in Pelagianism, that is, man gets his salvation by doing good things. So God can't save man: it's man who can save himself alone.
Because man has free will.

 

[Estro Felino]

God shows his power to us every day of our life.

well...how?

Man's capacity and potential is limited, very limited. If man was omnipotent he would for example cheat death, but he can't. God can simply take his life using a speck (virus) that man can't even see (God can take man's life even without that).

I'm not talking about material powers. Of course God is omnipotent in the material world, because he controls matter.
But as for economics, politics....God can't do anything. It's up to man to change the world.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

This thread is for meditating upon the power of free will.
I guess that free will is what makes man the most powerful being ever. Certainly even more powerful than God, potentially, I dare say.
Because man can use free will to create lots of marvelous things (electricity, planes), but he can destruct with the same strength (atomic bombs, for example).

I don't think that God has been fair, in giving humans free will.
He has thrown all the responsibility to man, so now humans are responsible for all that they do on Earth. And their actions will be indelibly carved in history forever.

That's why using free will is very dangerous. And still people use it in a destructive way.

If freewill existed, this response would not exist. In fact, if freewill existed, nothing would exist.

 

[Quintessence]

Of course not. I believe in Pelagianism, that is, man gets his salvation by doing good things. So God can't save man: it's man who can save himself alone.
Because man has free will.

Ah.

I think that suggesting humans were omnipotent and/or close to the level of the Christian god, who to my understanding is regarded as an order of magnitude greater than humanity in Christian theology, sounded a lot like autotheism.

But I begin to wonder if your understanding of the Christian god is what is considered traditional. Do you feel that god is omnipotent? If so, what does that entail to you?

 

[Estro Felino]

If freewill existed, this response would not exist. In fact, if freewill existed, nothing would exist.

Very interesting. Can you explain this concept to me?

 

[Sleeppy]

This is rediculous-- But, I'm not surprised. Belief in free will originates from the ego, and is an illusion. It directly causes idolatry of oneself.. And so, here you are thinking you subvert the Most High.

 

[Estro Felino]

Ah.

...sounded a lot like autotheism.

But I begin to wonder if your understanding of the Christian god is what is considered traditional. Do you feel that god is omnipotent? If so, what does that entail to you?

Well, I believe in man's absolute autonomy from God. Man is meant to be autonomous from God. You can call this belief autotheism, if you like.

My vision on God is totally different than the traditional one. God is Love, and he doesn't judge people. He doesn't interfere with their free will, he doesn't punish, nor awards them. It's static Love, whereas creatures (we, human beings) are dynamic.

 

[Estro Felino]

This is rediculous-- But, I'm not surprised. Belief in free will originates from the ego, and is an illusion. It directly causes idolatry of oneself.. And so, here you are thinking you subvert the Most High.

Free will exists. It's not an illusion. I give you an example. Let's say I'm the richest person in the world. And my money is inexhaustible; I decide to use it to redistribute all the resources of the world equally. So I succeed in solving global issues like poverty in few years.
It's me who solves this issue, not certainly God. It's my merit. Not God's. I used free will in a very creative and productive way.

Okay...this is a childish and simple example.
But I've just showed you not only that free will exists, but also how powerful free will is.

 

[Sleeppy]

Free will exists. It's not an illusion. I give you an example. Let's say I'm the richest person in the world. And my money is inexhaustible; I decide to use it to redistribute all the resources of the world equally. So I succeed in solving global issues like poverty in few years.
It's me who solves this issue, not certainly God. It's my merit. Not God's. I used free will in a very creative and productive way.

Okay...this is a childish and simple example.
But I've just showed you not only that free will exists, but also how powerful free will is.

Illusion. Your genetic makeup determines every reaction you will ever have, to the world. It determines your likes and dislikes. It determines your height, your weight, your facial structure, the number of hairs on your head, your eyesight, your tastebuds, your emotions, your thoughts- everything.. And as Einstein found: time itself is an illusion; God knows all things, past, present, and future- as if they exist simultaneously. God is one; but He's allowed His own ignorant creations to believe they are gods beside Him, and to perceive time in a linear three part fashion. Belief in the trinity was natural for you, as well; they've divided God since the beginning.

 

[Estro Felino]

Illusion. Your genetic makeup determines every reaction you will ever have, to the world. It determines your likes and dislikes. It determines your height, your weight, your facial structure, the number of hairs on your head, your eyesight, your tastebuds, your emotions, your thoughts- everything.. And as Einstein found: time itself is an illusion; God knows all things, past, present, and future- as if they exist simultaneously. God is one; but He's allowed His own ignorant creations to believe they are gods beside Him, and to perceive time in a linear three part fashion. Belief in the trinity was natural for you, as well; they've divided God since the beginning.

Well...are you saying that people who do evil stuff are genetically evil and selfish, whereas people who do good things are genetically good and altruistic?

 

[Skwim]

Free will exists. It's not an illusion. I give you an example. Let's say I'm the richest person in the world. And my money is inexhaustible; I decide to use it to redistribute all the resources of the world equally. So I succeed in solving global issues like poverty in few years.
It's me who solves this issue, not certainly God. It's my merit. Not God's. I used free will in a very creative and productive way.

Okay...this is a childish and simple example.
But I've just showed you not only that free will exists, but also how powerful free will is.

Been through this issue so many times before so please excuse me if I happen to sound abrupt at times.
First of all, so that we're all on the same page here, you have to identify what you mean by "will." Secondly, what you mean by "freewill." Once that's established perhaps what you say will be clearer.

 

[idav]

Illusion. Your genetic makeup determines every reaction you will ever have, to the world. It determines your likes and dislikes. It determines your height, your weight, your facial structure, the number of hairs on your head, your eyesight, your tastebuds, your emotions, your thoughts- everything.. And as Einstein found: time itself is an illusion; God knows all things, past, present, and future- as if they exist simultaneously. God is one; but He's allowed His own ignorant creations to believe they are gods beside Him, and to perceive time in a linear three part fashion. Belief in the trinity was natural for you, as well; they've divided God since the beginning.

Problem is divergence still happens.

Why do identical twins end up having such different lives? | Science | The Observer

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Very interesting. Can you explain this concept to me?

Everything happens because of cause and effect. I wouldn't have responded to this thread if I hadn't seen it and hadn't known how to respond. I wouldn't be introducing this concept if I hadn't learned it or if someone weren't asking me to explain it.

Though it might seem like we have freewill in the matter, we don't. Our choices aren't really choices, they're the consequence, an outcome of many things adding up to it. We decide what we do based on the things around us influencing our "decisions".

Freewill would imply that we can do things completely free of influence, purely choice. We know this is not true, because like I said, our choices are chosen for us by everything else. A universe with freewill would therefore require an absence of cause and effect, but if you actually look deep into a scenario you can see that our universe is packed full of cause and effect. Look deep enough, you will notice that not only is it packed full of it, but you will notice that it is basic.

In a universe without cause and effect, nothing would make sense at all. In our world, if you see a dark grouping of clouds off into the distance, you expect and prepare for rain. In a world without cause and effect, you wouldn't expect rain, because rain is just as likely to be the result of the dark clouds as an Elvis concert is.

Now, in such a chaotic, unbounded universe, the universe would not have even began existing, because there is nothing that would make it. It's like holding up a tent without poles.

 

[Estro Felino]

Been through this issue so many times before so please excuse me if I happen to sound abrupt at times.
First of all, so that we're all on the same page here, you have to identify what you mean by "will." Secondly, what you mean by "freewill." Once that's established perhaps what you say will be clearer.

All right, I will try. Even if I think that definition of will is very objective.
Will is the capability of controlling your body and your natural instincts, and of using them in a creative way, That's why animals don't have will. They have instinct.
It is the consciousness of our limits and our potentialities.

Free will means that nobody -in normal conditions- prevents us to use free will.
Of course if a person kidnaps you, they deprive you of your freedom (and free will).

 

[Estro Felino]

Everything happens because of cause and effect. I wouldn't have responded to this thread if I hadn't seen it and hadn't known how to respond. I wouldn't be introducing this concept if I hadn't learned it or if someone weren't asking me to explain it.

Good point. but... a hour ago, I was reading an interesting thread and I was tempted to respond. But then I decided it was not necessary. As you can see, I used my free will.

Though it might seem like we have freewill in the matter, we don't. Our choices aren't really choices, they're the consequence, an outcome of many things adding up to it. We decide what we do based on the things around us influencing our "decisions".

Freewill would imply that we can do things completely free of influence, purely choice. We know this is not true, because like I said, our choices are chosen for us by everything else. A universe with freewill would therefore require an absence of cause and effect, but if you actually look deep into a scenario you can see that our universe is packed full of cause and effect. Look deep enough, you will notice that not only is it packed full of it, but you will notice that it is basic.
.

Well...I would agree on your speech, if you proved me that man has no strength of will. Actually man does have it. When a person has a big strength of will, all the external influences have no effect on him.
So the cause-effect system doesn't work on a person with a big strength of will.

I understand that very few people have a big strength of will. However I like your way of reasoning very much.