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God as a Pathogen

This is my first real post here so I hope I'm putting this in the right place.When I heard the phrase "religion is a virus" it piqued my curiosity and drove me to do some reading on the history of religion (particularly Christianity as it was easier for me to understand) as well as the behavior of viruses, bacteria and other pathogens. Just a word of warning I'm going to use Mormons as an example often because they were one of the few religions with reliable census data around the time of their founding also there's a bit of math ahead.

First, religions need converts like pathogens need a host. Religions that are unable to gain enough converts to counter loss through deconversion or death eventually go extinct. For example look at the Shakers. The Shakers were one of a few religious groups that formed in eighteenth-century England which branched off of mainstream Protestantism. They banned sexual intercourse so Shakers could not have children, so adoption was a major source of new members. This continued until orphanages were established and the states began to limit adoption by religious groups. Without children to convert, the Shakers dwindled in number and now are almost extinct as they could not spread their faith faster than they lost members. This puts a selective pressure on religions in a similar way to pathogens. Those that are better at gaining and keeping converts are the ones that stick around.

Religions require gaining converts to survive just indoctrinating children of your family isn't enough. To calculate the rate at which a religion can spread without gaining converts we need to use the equation Nt = NoPt . No is the initial of believers, P is the number of progeny produced per individual per generation, t is in generations, and Nt is the number of believers at time t. We need to make two assumptions, first, is the number of progeny produced, and second is the length of a generation. For this calculation a generation will be 20 years and the progeny per woman will be 1.2which was average for the time. I will be using the original 6 Mormons. The equation we get is 6×1.220. This gives us a growth rate of 230 per 20 years. Compare this result to the actual number of Mormons 20 years later 16,460 which would give us 16,230 converts. Gaining converts in this case is 70 times more effective at growing the religion. As you can see, gaining and keeping converts is essential to any religion, especially new ones.

Secondly, religions change to adapt to new environments. Polygamy was considered a god given right and that monogamy led to the moral decay of Europe according to the Mormons in the early 1800's. The Mormon church practiced polygamy from 1843 until 1890. The rest of the United States in large part found the practice offensive and laws were passed criminalizing polygamy in the US in 1862, 1882, and 1887. The Mormon church gave into to this cultural selective pressure in 1890, outlawing the practice of polygamy.

Not only do religions change, they can change so drastically that one group splits off from another in a kind of "speciation" event. We can look at the Baptist Church for a good examplt. During the Protestant Reformation, the Church of England separated from the Roman Catholic Church. There were some Christians who were not content with the achievements of the mainstream Protestant Reformation and chose to break away from the church and become separatists. Historians trace the earliest Baptist church back to 1609 in Amsterdam, with John Smyth who separated from the Church of England in 1606. Their belief was that a scriptural church should consist only of reborn believers who have been baptized on a personal confession of faith and did not accept the infant baptisms of the Church of England or the other Separatists. Here we can see the changes within a religion causing a new denominations to be created within the religion.

To summarize, religions need to gain new converts or go extinct, religions change and adapt to new environments, religions can even change and evolve into new denominations or even entirely new religions. I hope you guys found this to be an enlightening and interesting read.
 

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
Isn't this the 'human condition' though?

Humans being like a virus on Mother Earth, depleting Her resources and mating to avoid extinction?

There's a lot of things like this that's detrimental to existence before one goes and points the finger at religion.

However, I agree with you that some religions are like that, even resorting to buying (paying off) people to join them, beget children in the name of that religion with the ultimate aim of global religious domination.

These kinds of extremist tactics put all religions in a bad light. I am Hindu and we don't do this...
 
Isn't this the 'human condition' though?

Humans being like a virus on Mother Earth, depleting Her resources and mating to avoid extinction?

There's a lot of things like this that's detrimental to existence before one goes and points the finger at religion.

However, I agree with you that some religions are like that, even resorting to buying (paying off) people to join them, beget children in the name of that religion with the ultimate aim of global religious domination.

These kinds of extremist tactics put all religions in a bad light. I am Hindu and we don't do this...

I wasn't really talking about how religions are detrimental or any extreme methods used to gain converts. I was attempting to show how religions behave like living things specifically pathogens like viruses and bacteria.
 

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
I wasn't really talking about how religions are detrimental or any extreme methods used to gain converts. I was attempting to show how religions behave like living things specifically pathogens like viruses and bacteria.
Okay, sorry...headache. I'll agree with you though and say that they do. There's no doubt they do.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
This is my first real post here so I hope I'm putting this in the right place.When I heard the phrase "religion is a virus" it piqued my curiosity and drove me to do some reading on the history of religion (particularly Christianity as it was easier for me to understand) as well as the behavior of viruses, bacteria and other pathogens. Just a word of warning I'm going to use Mormons as an example often because they were one of the few religions with reliable census data around the time of their founding also there's a bit of math ahead.

First, religions need converts like pathogens need a host. Religions that are unable to gain enough converts to counter loss through deconversion or death eventually go extinct. For example look at the Shakers. The Shakers were one of a few religious groups that formed in eighteenth-century England which branched off of mainstream Protestantism. They banned sexual intercourse so Shakers could not have children, so adoption was a major source of new members. This continued until orphanages were established and the states began to limit adoption by religious groups. Without children to convert, the Shakers dwindled in number and now are almost extinct as they could not spread their faith faster than they lost members. This puts a selective pressure on religions in a similar way to pathogens. Those that are better at gaining and keeping converts are the ones that stick around.

Religions require gaining converts to survive just indoctrinating children of your family isn't enough. To calculate the rate at which a religion can spread without gaining converts we need to use the equation Nt = NoPt . No is the initial of believers, P is the number of progeny produced per individual per generation, t is in generations, and Nt is the number of believers at time t. We need to make two assumptions, first, is the number of progeny produced, and second is the length of a generation. For this calculation a generation will be 20 years and the progeny per woman will be 1.2which was average for the time. I will be using the original 6 Mormons. The equation we get is 6×1.220. This gives us a growth rate of 230 per 20 years. Compare this result to the actual number of Mormons 20 years later 16,460 which would give us 16,230 converts. Gaining converts in this case is 70 times more effective at growing the religion. As you can see, gaining and keeping converts is essential to any religion, especially new ones.

Secondly, religions change to adapt to new environments. Polygamy was considered a god given right and that monogamy led to the moral decay of Europe according to the Mormons in the early 1800's. The Mormon church practiced polygamy from 1843 until 1890. The rest of the United States in large part found the practice offensive and laws were passed criminalizing polygamy in the US in 1862, 1882, and 1887. The Mormon church gave into to this cultural selective pressure in 1890, outlawing the practice of polygamy.

Not only do religions change, they can change so drastically that one group splits off from another in a kind of "speciation" event. We can look at the Baptist Church for a good examplt. During the Protestant Reformation, the Church of England separated from the Roman Catholic Church. There were some Christians who were not content with the achievements of the mainstream Protestant Reformation and chose to break away from the church and become separatists. Historians trace the earliest Baptist church back to 1609 in Amsterdam, with John Smyth who separated from the Church of England in 1606. Their belief was that a scriptural church should consist only of reborn believers who have been baptized on a personal confession of faith and did not accept the infant baptisms of the Church of England or the other Separatists. Here we can see the changes within a religion causing a new denominations to be created within the religion.

To summarize, religions need to gain new converts or go extinct, religions change and adapt to new environments, religions can even change and evolve into new denominations or even entirely new religions. I hope you guys found this to be an enlightening and interesting read.

Impressive research, but simplistic thesis. Thank you, though.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I wasn't really talking about how religions are detrimental or any extreme methods used to gain converts. I was attempting to show how religions behave like living things specifically pathogens like viruses and bacteria.

The relationship of a religion to converts doesn't need to be portrayed as analogous to the relationship of a pathogen to its host. It might even be more analogous to think of that relationship as that between a plant and the nutrients available to it in its environment, or that between an animal and its food source.

But actually all three analogies break down in the end because a religion also grows (albeit much more slowly) from people being born into the religion, but neither pathogens nor plants, nor animals grow from some internal source.

If you want an analogy for religions from the natural world, think perhaps of slaver ant colonies. They grow both internally from reproduction, and externally from stealing the larva of other ant colonies. Not a perfect analogy, but perhaps better than pathogens.
 
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I wasn't really talking about how religions are detrimental or any extreme methods used to gain converts. I was attempting to show how religions behave like living things specifically pathogens like viruses and bacteria.

It could be said about any 'social endeavour'.

It's not at all specific to religion. In fact the same analogy could be made about business; Gain 'converts' / grow / spread / adapt
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
This is my first real post here so I hope I'm putting this in the right place.When I heard the phrase "religion is a virus" it piqued my curiosity and drove me to do some reading on the history of religion (particularly Christianity as it was easier for me to understand) as well as the behavior of viruses, bacteria and other pathogens. Just a word of warning I'm going to use Mormons as an example often because they were one of the few religions with reliable census data around the time of their founding also there's a bit of math ahead.

First, religions need converts like pathogens need a host. Religions that are unable to gain enough converts to counter loss through deconversion or death eventually go extinct. For example look at the Shakers. The Shakers were one of a few religious groups that formed in eighteenth-century England which branched off of mainstream Protestantism. They banned sexual intercourse so Shakers could not have children, so adoption was a major source of new members. This continued until orphanages were established and the states began to limit adoption by religious groups. Without children to convert, the Shakers dwindled in number and now are almost extinct as they could not spread their faith faster than they lost members. This puts a selective pressure on religions in a similar way to pathogens. Those that are better at gaining and keeping converts are the ones that stick around.

Religions require gaining converts to survive just indoctrinating children of your family isn't enough. To calculate the rate at which a religion can spread without gaining converts we need to use the equation Nt = NoPt . No is the initial of believers, P is the number of progeny produced per individual per generation, t is in generations, and Nt is the number of believers at time t. We need to make two assumptions, first, is the number of progeny produced, and second is the length of a generation. For this calculation a generation will be 20 years and the progeny per woman will be 1.2which was average for the time. I will be using the original 6 Mormons. The equation we get is 6×1.220. This gives us a growth rate of 230 per 20 years. Compare this result to the actual number of Mormons 20 years later 16,460 which would give us 16,230 converts. Gaining converts in this case is 70 times more effective at growing the religion. As you can see, gaining and keeping converts is essential to any religion, especially new ones.

Secondly, religions change to adapt to new environments. Polygamy was considered a god given right and that monogamy led to the moral decay of Europe according to the Mormons in the early 1800's. The Mormon church practiced polygamy from 1843 until 1890. The rest of the United States in large part found the practice offensive and laws were passed criminalizing polygamy in the US in 1862, 1882, and 1887. The Mormon church gave into to this cultural selective pressure in 1890, outlawing the practice of polygamy.

Not only do religions change, they can change so drastically that one group splits off from another in a kind of "speciation" event. We can look at the Baptist Church for a good examplt. During the Protestant Reformation, the Church of England separated from the Roman Catholic Church. There were some Christians who were not content with the achievements of the mainstream Protestant Reformation and chose to break away from the church and become separatists. Historians trace the earliest Baptist church back to 1609 in Amsterdam, with John Smyth who separated from the Church of England in 1606. Their belief was that a scriptural church should consist only of reborn believers who have been baptized on a personal confession of faith and did not accept the infant baptisms of the Church of England or the other Separatists. Here we can see the changes within a religion causing a new denominations to be created within the religion.

To summarize, religions need to gain new converts or go extinct, religions change and adapt to new environments, religions can even change and evolve into new denominations or even entirely new religions. I hope you guys found this to be an enlightening and interesting read.

Thoughts/ideas/concepts in general form a parallel to biological evolution. Those that are better at increasing their frequency of adherents spread, those which no one buys into fade away. But just like evolution this takes many many generations. The fact that 1) established doctrine that is incredibly hostile to change, from the 3rd century to date, 2) a flood of new interpretations and right out abandonment for 'something better' demonstrates that many ideas aren't cutting it. This is also why scientific method has increased in adherents exponentially in the past few centuries, it works and it convinces.

If a concept is harmful, and it's argument is such that it spreads or even can't be eliminated, then I see parallels to virus. I think the abrahmic religions are disease.
 
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dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Interesting post, and I'll agree for the most part. But I wouldn't limit this to just religion, any endeavor a human takes up generally ends up this way. I think it's a human thing, like NobodyYouKnow pointed out.
 
The relationship of a religion to converts doesn't need to be portrayed as analogous to the relationship of a pathogen to its host. It might even be more analogous to think of that relationship as that between a plant and the nutrients available to it in its environment, or that between an animal and its food source.

But actually all three analogies break down in the end because a religion also grows (albeit much more slowly) from people being born into the religion, but neither pathogens nor plants, nor animals grow from some internal source.

If you want an analogy for religions from the natural world, think perhaps of slaver ant colonies. They grow both internally from reproduction, and externally from stealing the larva of other ant colonies. Not a perfect analogy, but perhaps better than pathogens.

It's not the perfect analogy I admit. I don't think it's that flawed though. Religions can be spread only through family but larger religions grow by gaining converts. Religions that pass down solely through families are at a disadvantage and thus aren't as common as those that gain converts.
 
Science is similar, with its branching off and specializations and such.

Science is a bit different in that it new branches don't compete with each other to convert the general population to their side. You don't see Biologists debating Physicists on whose model better reflects reality but you might see that debate between a Baptist and a Pentecostal for example
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Science is a bit different in that it new branches don't compete with each other to convert the general population to their side.

A few observations:

•*Not all religions compete with each other for converts; many religions are not interested in proselytization or conversion. Further, many religions are also syncretic, meaning you can blend elements from many "separate" religions into a single path (so there is no "their" side).

•*Science does have its competitive aspects, particularly when appealing for funding or recruiting new students and scientists to their fields. Science educators often act as science advocates, especially for the field they specialize in.

At any rate, I don't see the use of comparing human endeavors to pathogens unless your agenda is to slander or defame that endeavor. I don't think that's necessarily what you intended to do here with your OP, but there's no escaping that a comparison to something widely regarded as negative - like a disease - is going to frame the compared subject in a negative light as well. I don't find that negative, demeaning subtext useful or necessary.
 
A few observations:

•*Not all religions compete with each other for converts; many religions are not interested in proselytization or conversion. Further, many religions are also syncretic, meaning you can blend elements from many "separate" religions into a single path (so there is no "their" side).

•*Science does have its competitive aspects, particularly when appealing for funding or recruiting new students and scientists to their fields. Science educators often act as science advocates, especially for the field they specialize in.

At any rate, I don't see the use of comparing human endeavors to pathogens unless your agenda is to slander or defame that endeavor. I don't think that's necessarily what you intended to do here with your OP, but there's no escaping that a comparison to something widely regarded as negative - like a disease - is going to frame the compared subject in a negative light as well. I don't find that negative, demeaning subtext useful or necessary.

I had not considered religions created from blending elements from several separate religions. I may have to rethink this analogy. My point wasn't to slander religion in general just to make an analogy that accurately predicts how religions behave.
 

Karl R

Active Member
I may have to rethink this analogy. My point wasn't to slander religion in general just to make an analogy that accurately predicts how religions behave.
Pathogens make for a poor analogy for additional reasons. Typically, pathogens either kill their hosts, or are eliminated from their hosts by immune systems. My body does not appear to be trying to rid itself of my religious beliefs. My religious beliefs do not appear likely to shorten my life.

There may be a closer relationship to the microorganisms which have a symbiotic relationship with humans, like the ones which live in our intestines. But that is also an imperfect analogy, since the lack of these organisms is detrimental to our health. I see no evidence that absence of religion is harmful to humans.

So far, the most accurate comparison anyone has made was the comparison to businesses. They compete for market share. With insufficient market share, they die. The most robust growth usually comes from stealing market share from competitors. Furthermore, businesses and religious sects can merge (i.e. UUs used to be two separate groups: Unitarians and Universalists). Competitors can also cooperate in pursuit of a common goal.

Personally, I find it unsurprising that you found some similarities between religions and organisms. Religions (and businesses) are made of human beings ... and human beings are living organisms. It would be more surprising if there were no similarities.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Science is a bit different in that it new branches don't compete with each other to convert the general population to their side. You don't see Biologists debating Physicists on whose model better reflects reality but you might see that debate between a Baptist and a Pentecostal for example

Ever seen a physicist go at it with a biologist?
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I had not considered religions created from blending elements from several separate religions. I may have to rethink this analogy. My point wasn't to slander religion in general just to make an analogy that accurately predicts how religions behave.
You might liken the "blending" concept to horizontal gene transfer in bacteria. Bdelloid rotifers are known to incorporate DNA from unrelated organisms too.

In spite of the negative connotations of the word "pathogen", there is some soundness to your analogy. Religion could be considered a meme.
 
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