God clearly wants us confused

[Spiderman]

Agreed, it is something that seems quite obvious. Even amongst the same Christian faith there are many, many denominations which disagree on very important issues. The Bible itself couldn't even get the birthplace of Jesus right. Was it Nazareth or Bethlehem? One part of the NT says it was in Bethlehem, the other says there was a consensus needed and he was born in Nazareth. It is very clear by the actions of Christians that this book is not coherent or straight forward. If it wasn't meant to lead to confusion, and multiple denominations, then these things simply wouldn't be, but because they are, we can say for certain that God has intended confusion. Even in the Bible he wanted to confuse people with language because he was scared they would build a tower to Heaven, a concept that we now know makes absolutely no sense, nor does it fit in with what we know about how languages came about. Its blatantly flawed and confusing.

Excellent post! I couldn't agree more

 

[Blackdog22]

Let me see if I understand this:

You don't accept the instruction booklet and you are confused. I accept the instruction booklet and i am not confused.

Jesus quoted the scriptures and he isn't confused. You don't accept scripture and you are confused.

Scripture says that Jesus works with His written word but you don't want to work with the written word and you are confused..

Jesus said "If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you" and He isn't confused, but you don't want to remain in His words, because you think it is simply a book, and you are confused.

The Apostles quoted His words and aren't confused but you don't believe in those words and are confused.

I think I have found a pattern here.

You are only looking at it from a single perspective. The people writing those books didn't seem to be confused, but when you match them with the people who wrote different aspects of the book it reads as if they are all speaking to different Gods. It is like a Pastor who claims he isnt confused, but says being gay is alright and then another Pastor claims he isn't confused either, but claims being gay is completely wrong. Neither of them are confused from their subjective pov, but clearly one of them is confused when looking at this objectively. This is why the Bible cannot be trusted as you say it should be, nor does it make sense to do so as even Christians realize the flaws in the book once studied. Many of the most well versed Christians I have come across can't make sense of it all. Confusion can never exist subjectively, because then you are in a bubble of your own making, you have to look at it objectively and then you see what is wrong.

 

[Kenny]

You are only looking at it from a single perspective. The people writing those books didn't seem to be confused, but when you match them with the people who wrote different aspects of the book it reads as if they are all speaking to different Gods. It is like a Pastor who claims he isnt confused, but says being gay is alright and then another Pastor claims he isn't confused either, but claims being gay is completely wrong. Neither of them are confused from their subjective pov, but clearly one of them is confused when looking at this objectively. This is why the Bible cannot be trusted as you say it should be, nor does it make sense to do so as even Christians realize the flaws in the book once studied. Many of the most well versed Christians I have come across can't make sense of it all. Confusion can never exist subjectively, because then you are in a bubble of your own making, you have to look at it objectively and then you see what is wrong.

I used to use the statement "Everyone interprets the Bible differently". It is a great statement when one hasn't really studied it.

Granted, there are some that can be interpreted subjectively, but the vast majority is quite black and white.

In that I associate with hundreds of pastors, I don't find that your position is right. The only way one gets confused (on issues of importance) is if you are trying to squeeze your position into the Bible instead of letting the Bible advise you what your position should be.

 

[Kenny]

Excellent post! I couldn't agree more

Is that because you want to be confused? I have offered twice to address what area you are confused about and you seem to ignore the request.

 

[Blackdog22]

I used to use the statement "Everyone interprets the Bible differently". It is a great statement when one hasn't really studied it.

Granted, there are some that can be interpreted subjectively, but the vast majority is quite black and white.

In that I associate with hundreds of pastors, I don't find that your position is right. The only way one gets confused (on issues of importance) is if you are trying to squeeze your position into the Bible instead of letting the Bible advise you what your position should be.

I would love to see each Pastor talk about each issue in the Bible on a 1 on 1 basis. I bet you are wrong in that they would reach different conclusions. One of the guys in this thread, who is a Christian, has studied the Bible for 15 years and sees the "false bits" as he puts it in the book. Certainly something is going on there. If you want me to make a list of the Biblical contradictions I can or we can just accept that thousands of different denominations exist and then you tell me why that is exactly. Lets be honest and reasonable here.

 

[Kenny]

I would love to see each Pastor talk about each issue in the Bible on a 1 on 1 basis.

I do...

To reiterate:

On the major and important issues there is little difference and thus there is fellowship between us all.

On those items that are not clearly stated, there is room for differences. But no one is confused. We understand the Romans 14 principle that we can have different views on certain issues but still be in total communion realizing that the differences are not foundational.

It is as it should be and its getting better as time goes by.

Like a body, an ear is not the foot and we understand that these differences are still part of the same body. Again, no one is confused.

I think the key word is "confused". One can hold a different position of thought and not be confused. PopeaDope is confused...

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Clearly you just have to look at the history of Religion and it is obvious people are divided and confused. Without interfering with free-will, God could easily solve that problem. What do you think his reason is for wanting us confused?

You can say He doesn't want us confused, but I know better. If he didn't want us confused, he would speak up and answer our questions. For one person, the truth is Judaism. For another person the truth is Atheism. For another person the truth is Christianity. For another, the truth is Islam. For another, Mormonism, for another the truth is Polytheism. And the list goes on and on.

God clearly wants us confused or he would speak up to us and let us know the truth. There is a small percentage of people that God wills have enlightenment and understanding.

Your conclusion is most interesting. Certainly, I agree with some of the points you make, but your conclusion includes one premise that you don't actually articulate, but merely assume -- the existence of God.

Because, you see, if there were no God, but a lot of belief based on ordinary human thinking, then the confusion you see is precisely the confusion you would expect.

And that's just another one of the many things that make me an atheist.

 

[Spiderman]

Is that because you want to be confused? I have offered twice to address what area you are confused about and you seem to ignore the request.

I don't want to be confused. I want God to give me clarity so that I can know and do His will. What I'm confused about is why does God hide himself and hide the truth. Why do people who read the Bible wind up at so many opposite conclusions and interpretations. Why doesn't God speak up.

God promised that if I ask anything in the name of Jesus, it will be given me. I ask in the name of Jesus for simply the grace to know and do His will and he doesn't give the grace.

John 14:13 ►
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

That isn't true. If we don't get to lie, neither should he.

If some of his word isn't trustworthy, which it clearly isn't, how do I know the rest is?

 

[Kenny]

I don't want to be confused. I want God to give me clarity so that I can know and do His will. What I'm confused about is why does God hide himself and hide the truth. Why do people who read the Bible wind up at so many opposite conclusions and interpretations. Why doesn't God speak up.

God promised that if I ask anything in the name of Jesus, it will be given me. I ask in the name of Jesus for simply the grace to know and do His will and he doesn't give the grace.

John 14:13 ►
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

That isn't true. If we don't get to lie, neither should he.

If some of his word isn't trustworthy, which it clearly isn't, how do I know the rest is?

You gave me three... let me start with one and ask a question about #2...

1) James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.
6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

If you believe that you can ask for something in Jesus name and then turn around and believe it is a lie, then you become double minded. God can't work with a double-minded position. That creates confusion.

Notice that the confusion is created by the person and not by God.

I assume that you understand that you can't ask for something He never said you could ask for.

2) "Why doesn't God speak up"... Know His will in what area. That is too broad of a statement.

 

[Sunstone]

What if, instead of wanting us confused, he wants us to use our ability to reason - that he gifted us with - to sort through all the nonsense?

But why would he want us all to be agnostics?

 

[Blackdog22]

I do...

To reiterate:

On the major and important issues there is little difference and thus there is fellowship between us all.

On those items that are not clearly stated, there is room for differences. But no one is confused. We understand the Romans 14 principle that we can have different views on certain issues but still be in total communion realizing that the differences are not foundational.

It is as it should be and its getting better as time goes by.

Like a body, an ear is not the foot and we understand that these differences are still part of the same body. Again, no one is confused.

I think the key word is "confused". One can hold a different position of thought and not be confused. PopeaDope is confused...

No one is confused from their pov. This also isn't addressing the denominations who most certainly disagree on major issues. Again, when looked at objectively, not from one persons pov, there is confusion. It can't be denied. There are simply too many messages and different methods of thought within one religion to think that everyone is on the right track. If people were truly hearing from God on such major issues they wouldn't all come to different conclusions. Which leaves me to ponder, what is it that they are really talking too? Perhaps its quite easy to mistake your own thoughts and sub conscious as a seperate entity when left alone..in prayer.. Its been studied even and it was found that even children make up things in their head that they can speak too despite their being nothing there. Some would call them imaginary friends. Considering humans are 100% capable of this I am not sure any logical person could ever conclude they were speaking to God, but thats just my take on it.

 

[Kenny]

No one is confused from their pov. This also isn't addressing the denominations who most certainly disagree on major issues. Again, when looked at objectively, not from one persons pov, there is confusion. It can't be denied. There are simply too many messages and different methods of thought within one religion to think that everyone is on the right track. If people were truly hearing from God on such major issues they wouldn't all come to different conclusions. Which leaves me to ponder, what is it that they are really talking too? Perhaps its quite easy to mistake your own thoughts and sub conscious as a seperate entity when left alone..in prayer.. Its been studied even and it was found that even children make up things in their head that they can speak too despite their being nothing there. Some would call them imaginary friends. Considering humans are 100% capable of this I am not sure any logical person could ever conclude they were speaking to God, but thats just my take on it.

I just don't see it that way... at least with the multiple denominations that I associate with. Where there is major differences, IMV, it is when man adds to what isn't written.

As far as imaginary friends... I can't argue that point. But because there are quack doctors, we can't throw out the medical profession because of the quacks.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

God has given clear information for those people who are willing to open their eyes and see it. Most people do not want the truth or have been so brain washed by large religious institutions that they are not able to see what God has shown.

I believe that is the complete opposite.
God covers your eyes to blind you from seeing that truth that liberation is the best way to be free instead of following his rules and follow the commandments.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Thank you for that but you are obviously one of those who has not seen the truth.

 

[Blackdog22]

Thank you for that but you are obviously one of those who has not seen the truth.

What is the truth and how would you know it if you stumbled upon it? There are billions of people and thousands, if not millions, of religions throughout the ages that have quoted the same thing you are now. Do you ever stop and look in the mirror and realize you are one of many people who has held onto concepts that they thought were true, that we now no longer follow? Coming from the perspective that we are all human, therefore make human errors, who are you to say who has or hasn't seen the truth? Is he misguided? Are you misguided? Objectivity and looking at those around us, and history before us, is key to understanding exactly where you stand imo. Without these, you could just be making the same errors billions of people have made in the past. There are people who have died for their beliefs in outdated gods that most of us no longer even consider. These people were so convinced they had the truth they went to their graves with it. Yet, what truth did they really die for? Just something to consider.

 

[Kenny]

I believe that is the complete opposite.
God covers your eyes to blind you from seeing that truth that liberation is the best way to be free instead of following his rules and follow the commandments.

In the Christian perspective we stand on this statement " The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

We find more liberty in following rules and find that the lack thereof limits our potential for living big and spaciously.

 

[Muffled]

Clearly you just have to look at the history of Religion and it is obvious people are divided and confused. Without interfering with free-will, God could easily solve that problem. What do you think his reason is for wanting us confused?

You can say He doesn't want us confused, but I know better. If he didn't want us confused, he would speak up and answer our questions. For one person, the truth is Judaism. For another person the truth is Atheism. For another person the truth is Christianity. For another, the truth is Islam. For another, Mormonism, for another the truth is Polytheism. And the list goes on and on.

God clearly wants us confused or he would speak up to us and let us know the truth. There is a small percentage of people that God wills have enlightenment and understanding.

I believe I do all the time but as usual people refuse to listen or if they listen refuse to believe.

 

[Muffled]

God left us a book. Just because there is a book that claims it has the truth doesn't mean people know it is true.

God's refusal to speak up shows that he wants us confused. God knows that by speaking up and enlightening people it would eliminate confusion.

Of course God wants there to be much confusion in our world. If he didn't, he would enlighten people and speak up.

That book is clearly not enough. Look at how many different conflicting interpretations of the book there are. Look at how many people disagree on what the book says.

I believe that is due to the fact that people like their own ides better.

 

[Muffled]

Im not saying he wants everyone confused, but he gives understanding and enlightenment to a small amount of people.

He clearly wants most people confused, not all. Why? I don't know

I believe Jesus said to spread the gospel all over the world and we have. The confusion doesn't come from God it comes from people.

 

[Spiderman]

You gave me three... let me start with one and ask a question about #2...

1) James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.
6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

If you believe that you can ask for something in Jesus name and then turn around and believe it is a lie, then you become double minded. God can't work with a double-minded position. That creates confusion.

Notice that the confusion is created by the person and not by God.

I assume that you understand that you can't ask for something He never said you could ask for.

2) "Why doesn't God speak up"... Know His will in what area. That is too broad of a statement.

So ask anything of the Father in my name and it will be done for you doesn't mean ask anything in my name and it will be done for you. See why I'm confused!?!

I don't understand why God wishes to play these games. I want to do His will and obey him in all things and he chooses to hide from me and not speak clearly. What good does that do?

I'm trying not to doubt. I'm trying to give God the faith he asks. I pray every day that I do God's will. His word says He will give me the grace. It's kind of hard to have no doubt when repeatedly God's Word turns out false and unreliable!