God does not judge

[PolyHedral]

First, have a little bit of background, so you can see where this argument is coming from.

I am a computer programmer, and have become quite skilled at this art. (Yes, it is an art, for all but trivial designs.) However, a large part of programming is not actually writing the program, but fixing the program. Whether it's because you've wrote the wrong thing, or the program is being fed wrong data, something almost inevitably goes wrong, which needs to be fixed.

To return to theology, the concept of me "judging" my programs and punishing them for their bugs doesn't make much sense. At any time, I can pause my program during its workings, and investigate its entire state. I can make the computer step through each individual instruction, and watch as my program makes it decisions. If I had enough time and patience, I could theoretically work out what data influenced my program and why it made its decision, no matter how complex that program or the decision was.

...But the exact same idea applies if we take the universe to be a computer program, and God to be an almighty programmer. It is already established in various religious traditions that God is powerful enough to see the entire state of the universe, and has the nebulous ability to exist "outside" of time. Why should He blame small, trivial programs for mistakes, either in His writing or in the data they are being given to process? How does it make sense to punish an entirely mechanical entity for following instructions?

 

[Jeremiah1]

Well, that all assumes that we are entirely mechanical entities without freewill.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Well, that all assumes that we are entirely mechanical entities without freewill.

Which would assume that god would not be able to determine why we make every decision that we do.

 

[openyourmind]

It seems simple to me. Like you said you make a "program" and run it, right? If you run the "program" and it fails you then must find it's flaws. How quickly can you do that? Just wondering not mocking, I don't know anything about progaming. Once you find a flaw you will attempt to fix it, right? Then run program again???? If the "program" fails again you know you must continue search for flaws. If the "program" is important enough you would spend lots of time on it. You want to make it run as you planned. But, what happens if the "program" has the abiltity to change it's design like a "virus" infection. Then before you can fix the "program" you would need to remove the "virus" first, right???? The many variables that can come would take some time. Would you not get fustrated if everything you try results in the same failure? The question I have is how long would you try fixing it before you would give up on a "program" you spent you life designing.

 

[Koldo]

PolyHedral: I agree. No reason to judge the program at all. It works as programmed.

Jeremiah: Free will is part of the program. It is like setting a random variable.

openyourmind: What? A program that can change its design by itself? It can't be done without the programmer's coding.

 

[PolyHedral]

It seems simple to me. Like you said you make a "program" and run it, right? If you run the "program" and it fails you then must find it's flaws. How quickly can you do that?

From the program's point of view, instantly. Obviously, the real-life time it takes will depend on how noticeable the problem is.

Just wondering not mocking, I don't know anything about progaming. Once you find a flaw you will attempt to fix it, right? Then run program again???? If the "program" fails again you know you must continue search for flaws. If the "program" is important enough you would spend lots of time on it. You want to make it run as you planned. But, what happens if the "program" has the abiltity to change it's design like a "virus" infection. Then before you can fix the "program" you would need to remove the "virus" first, right????[/quote]
Not if I have a list of every change it has made to its own design, I don't. If I have a list of every change it makes to the design, I can still see what instructions it followed to arrive at its actions.

The many variables that can come would take some time. Would you not get fustrated if everything you try results in the same failure? The question I have is how long would you try fixing it before you would give up on a "program" you spent you life designing.

I am an emotional human, and thus have finite patience. And the answer to the question is probably "A very long time."

Well, that all assumes that we are entirely mechanical entities without freewill.

How does free will work as a concept, if God can see everything?

 

[Breathe]

I am of the opinion that "God" does not judge us. The closest thing, and I'm being very loose here, to judging would be our own karma's fruition.

However. Why has nobody posted a silly picture yet?

Spoiler: Compulsory picture of God as a programmer

I wouldn't say we are entirely programmed, either, as we have consciousness and the ability to do things. We are not primarily governed by instinct any more, so would that account for something? Either a loophole we have exploited or a deliberate plan? Would we be programmed in something so logical and strict as Visual Basic? I don't think so, I think our "coding" would be a little bit loose. One of my video game magazines I was bought by my wife for her birthday confused:) mentioned in it that they are working on the ability for NPCs to make more tactical, human decisions, so I'm guessing that means without extreme parameters to tell them to go to hide if they're being shot at and they're near something they can hide behind. Would it be the same for us?


Or could only some things have been coded? Like for example, laws of nature, karma and so on, and then the universe left to its own devices when it had been "decided"?


I dunno, I've just thrown a bit out there. Ideas?

 

[PolyHedral]

I am of the opinion that "God" does not judge us. The closest thing, and I'm being very loose here, to judging would be our own karma's fruition.

Wouldn't "karma" either be simple coincidence, or the universe at large judging you?

I wouldn't say we are entirely programmed, either, as we have consciousness and the ability to do things. We are not primarily governed by instinct any more, so would that account for something? Either a loophole we have exploited or a deliberate plan? Would we be programmed in something so logical and strict as Visual Basic? I don't think so, I think our "coding" would be a little bit loose. One of my video game magazines I was bought by my wife for her birthday confused:) mentioned in it that they are working on the ability for NPCs to make more tactical, human decisions, so I'm guessing that means without extreme parameters to tell them to go to hide if they're being shot at and they're near something they can hide behind. Would it be the same for us?

Remember, what we have managed to get computers to do and what computers can do are very different, and the latter is much much larger. Also, if you establish a few, simple rules, it's entirely possible to get very very complex behavior out of them. For instance, Langton's Ant has two rules. For the first 10,000 steps or so, it seems to move at random, but after that, it creates a "highway" that stretches off to infinity. You can't tell it's going to do either of those until it actually does it, and it's not all obvious where the highway comes from.

But then, Gajardo in 2000 went and proved that Langton's Ant is actually capable of calculating any possible problem. (It just may be very slow. ) This includes any decision along the lines of "If I am being shot at, run," or "If someone could shoot at me, hide." It could even be slightly smarter and say, "If something bad happens, hide/run/kill it." (Of course, every unit might have a different idea of what something "bad" is...) Just because some behavior looks complex doesn't mean that the rules governing it are.

 

[Breathe]

Wouldn't "karma" either be simple coincidence, or the universe at large judging you?

Both and beyond that, imo.


Yeah, it's true that if you establish a few rules, it's possible to get surprisingly complex rules from them. That's why I think if things were "programmed" so to speak, then it'd be the "rules" of the game only - I don't think us being programmed from a pre-conceived idea or something would work. Problem is, how many rules do you need, and how do you keep the rules from being, well, unhelpful? For example, how do you stop people from trying to eat things they can't eat?

Wouldn't we end up all as automatons (if highly programmed) or chaotically different (like the ant: ten thousand steps to get something that isn't chaotic)? Unless we presume we inherit "steps", wouldn't we be majorly different beyond ascetic and personal opinions?

There's no doubting that we are hardwired to some extent: survival, for example, if one of the things we seem to be more or less programmed to do.

For example, wouldn't it be something like the following?:

Being attacked: Do something
Choice: Active, Passive
Active:: Run away, attack
Attack::: Do I think I can stop it from attacking me? If yes: kill, incapacitate. If no, cancel.
Passive:: Hide, Reason

​

Reason::: Do I think I can reason with it? If presumed yes: beg, cower, bribe, guilt trip, talk. If presumed no: cancel.

Pain: You have a pain in your arm
Can I stop the pain?
Yes: Stop it
No: Complain
Complain::Can I complain (for example, would it make me be captured, or lose my hunt?)? If yes, complain. If no, continue on until it's possible.


I don't think these in themselves would be too difficult to program, but I think they would be slightly more difficult to program according to certain variables, wouldn't they? If you were programming such a thing, would it require a lot of programming or just a little to make something able to do these two things in a naturalistic manner? For example, it wouldn't go attacking ten people, or someone far stronger, and it wouldn't start screaming when stalking something if it trod on a thorn? Ideas?


However, wouldn't this be nature's programming for self-preservation, and, not God's programming? I know some people probably wouldn't differentiate between them, but I do (I believe in atheistic, blind evolution. No guide or God involved).

However, I get the feeling you're making a distinction between say, physical and mental reactions to certain stimuli (physical and mental stress reaction and avoidance), and say, programming for allowance of cognitive abilities, right?

I'm no expert or anything, and I don't have an opinion on it, I'm just throwing some random, top of my head thoughts around, and to learn a bit better. So, if my questions suck, sorry.

 

[openyourmind]

How does free will work as a concept, if God can see everything?

God can see everything just as a programmer sees everything. Every problem you find you fix. If the program becomes infected with a virus then it becomes unpredictable, until you learn the design or dna of the virus. If the virus is to complex you can always wipe it clean and start over . If you learn how to fix the virus you do. Then you watch knowing what it is suppose to do and when ever a problem arises it, again needs to be fixed it.

Free will on earth (Hell) is given. Man has three choices Be a Sinner, Be rightous or Just be and pick no side. The "Programmer" write what needs to happen but the "program" may not work as designed. Welcome to the "virus" that has created hell, hope you can fix it!

 

[Koldo]

The programming for an human is quite complex as it would include many variables, but God is omnipotent, or so they say, right?

However, wouldn't this be nature's programming for self-preservation, and, not God's programming? I know some people probably wouldn't differentiate between them, but I do (I believe in atheistic, blind evolution. No guide or God involved).

What do you mean by "nature's programming for self-preservation"?

God can see everything just as a programmer sees everything. Every problem you find you fix. If the program becomes infected with a virus then it becomes unpredictable, until you learn the design or dna of the virus. If the virus is to complex you can always wipe it clean and start over . If you learn how to fix the virus you do. Then you watch knowing what it is suppose to do and when ever a problem arises it, again needs to be fixed it.

According to general belief, God is ,at least, the creator of the beginning of everything. There can not exist a virus that he hasn't programmed at least indirectly.

 

[Breathe]

The programming for an human is quite complex as it would include many variables, but God is omnipotent, or so they say, right?

What does omnipotent even mean?
I know what it means, lol. But what does it mean beyond the definition? How does it play out?

What do you mean by "nature's programming for self-preservation"?

Naturalistic survival instinct.

 

[openyourmind]

The programming for an human is quite complex as it would include many variables, but God is omnipotent, or so they say, right?



According to general belief, God is ,at least, the creator of the beginning of everything. There can not exist a virus that he hasn't programmed at least indirectly.

Yes God is omnipotent. The definition of Omnipotent is as follows;

1. A deity is able to do anything that it chooses to do.
2. A deity is able to do absolutely anything, even the logically impossible, i.e., pure agency.
3. A deity is able to do anything that is in accord with its own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of a deity's nature that what it speaks is truth, then it is not able to lie).
4. Hold that it is part of a deity's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for said deity to go against its own laws unless there was a reason to do so.
5. A deity is able to do anything that corresponds with its omniscience and therefore with its worldplan.

Yes god created everything and thus must have created the virus. God created "Man" of flesh and flesh is tempting and leads to irrational behavior. Man is given the right to decide for itself what to do next. Man has asked for control by eating from the "Tree of life" given free will, and goes as it pleases. When a program has become so corrupted it is beyond repair it is easier just to wipe it clean. Just as god has 9 times before. We are now at the 10th time and told the "programmer" won't wipe the program clean again. It's is up to the program to survive or destroy itself. When it does the programmer will start again rewritting the program and my guess will leave the virus out.

 

[chinu]

...But the exact same idea applies if we take the universe to be a computer program, and God to be an almighty programmer. It is already established in various religious traditions that God is powerful enough to see the entire state of the universe, and has the nebulous ability to exist "outside" of time. Why should He blame small, trivial programs for mistakes, either in His writing or in the data they are being given to process? How does it make sense to punish an entirely mechanical entity for following instructions?

Truely saying the punishments are also part of "His" program.

So, Nobody can know or come out of "His" program, until helped by "God" himself.

But, Conditions are applicable, for "His" help, to know and come out of "This" program.

Again truely saying "Applicable conditions" are also part of "His" program

And, If somebody is serious for the lines above, are also part of "This" program

Again truely saying, Until anybody comes out, there is only a program

So, don't try to understand the program, Just beg "Him" to help you, if you are feeling trapped in the program.


_/\_
Chinu

 

[PolyHedral]

God can see everything just as a programmer sees everything. Every problem you find you fix. If the program becomes infected with a virus then it becomes unpredictable, until you learn the design or dna of the virus. If the virus is to complex you can always wipe it clean and start over . If you learn how to fix the virus you do. Then you watch knowing what it is suppose to do and when ever a problem arises it, again needs to be fixed it.

It only becomes unpredictable if I do not have infinite patience. The rules for how any virus propagates are there for analysis. If I really, really wanted to, I could work out exactly how any virus could be fixed.

Free will on earth (Hell) is given. Man has three choices Be a Sinner, Be rightous or Just be and pick no side. The "Programmer" write what needs to happen but the "program" may not work as designed. Welcome to the "virus" that has created hell, hope you can fix it!

There isn't such a thing as choice in this scenario. Any appearance of "choice" is merely a sufficiently complex decision. The program will most definitely work as specified, because computers are machines, and thus follow instructions precisely. Problems only arise when the computer is using different instructions from what the programmer meant.

Yes God is omnipotent. The definition of Omnipotent is as follows;

1. A deity is able to do anything that it chooses to do.
2. A deity is able to do absolutely anything, even the logically impossible, i.e., pure agency.

This is nonsensical, and cannot possibly be true. An logically-contradicting God could not exist and still perform actions.

Yes god created everything and thus must have created the virus. God created "Man" of flesh and flesh is tempting and leads to irrational behavior. Man is given the right to decide for itself what to do next.

But there isn't any choice involved. It is entirely possible for God to go through the minds of everyone on Earth, and work out ahead of time, what they will do in any possible situation.

Man has asked for control by eating from the "Tree of life" given free will, and goes as it pleases. When a program has become so corrupted it is beyond repair it is easier just to wipe it clean. Just as god has 9 times before. We are now at the 10th time and told the "programmer" won't wipe the program clean again. It's is up to the program to survive or destroy itself. When it does the programmer will start again rewritting the program and my guess will leave the virus out.

But the source of the "virus" is obvious, even to entirely mortal me. God has never changed it, and thus it is completely nonsensical for him to destroy it 9 times for a trivial bug that has not been solved.

Truely saying the punishments are also part of "His" program.

This doesn't make sense. Why does He punish programs for their design flaws, which only He can be responsible for?

 

[Koldo]

What does omnipotent even mean?
I know what it means, lol. But what does it mean beyond the definition? How does it play out?

Hard to say given our limited mind.

Naturalistic survival instinct.

I see. Well, God created the universe, or so it is said. If he created the universe, then it could act more like an operational system ( like Windows ),but with the ability to create another programs by itself.
The universe can not act outside its parameters though, so it is still God responsability over it. God can not blame the universe for anything because the universe is restricted as to how God programmed it.

Yes god created everything and thus must have created the virus. God created "Man" of flesh and flesh is tempting and leads to irrational behavior. Man is given the right to decide for itself what to do next. Man has asked for control by eating from the "Tree of life" given free will, and goes as it pleases. When a program has become so corrupted it is beyond repair it is easier just to wipe it clean. Just as god has 9 times before. We are now at the 10th time and told the "programmer" won't wipe the program clean again. It's is up to the program to survive or destroy itself. When it does the programmer will start again rewritting the program and my guess will leave the virus out.

Incorrect. A program can not become corrupt according to its own will. There are only two ways to corrupt a program : bad coding ( which is programmer's fault ) , or external problems like interaction with other programs( the blame is on the programmers involved). At the end of the day, it is all tracked back to God.

Also, if the programmer made two choices available , like in "right" and "wrong", then you can not blame the program for picking any of them. If the programmer wanted everyone to pick the option "right" then he should have just left the option "wrong" out of the program design.

This doesn't make sense. Why does He punish programs for their design flaws, which only He can be responsible for?

This ^

 

[Breathe]

Hard to say given our limited mind.

Yeah, exactly.

I see. Well, God created the universe, or so it is said. If he created the universe, then it could act more like an operational system ( like Windows ),but with the ability to create another programs by itself.

Possibly, yeah. However, what is meant by "created"? Since the closest to creation of God that I think happened would be naturalistic laws that affect things. You know the stuff. Gravity 'n such.

The universe can not act outside its parameters though, so it is still God responsability over it. God can not blame the universe for anything because the universe is restricted as to how God programmed it.

I'm not someone who believes God 'blames' anyone. Such a concept appears rather silly to me.

However, on this, I'd like to ask a question, kind of playing Devil's Advocate.

I used to play a game called creatures. There are two terms that were used, "Wolfing Run", where the player (in this case, "God") hatches the creatures and then leaves them, possibly watching, possibly doing other things, possibly divinely AFK D). The other was "Feral Run", where the player would hatch them, then ignore them, then mess around every now and then.

Aren't these possible theories for what could happen? And, would these still mean God was responsible for things buggering up? I dunno.

 

[openyourmind]

I see. Well, God created the universe, or so it is said. If he created the universe, then it could act more like an operational system ( like Windows ),but with the ability to create another programs by itself.
The universe can not act outside its parameters though, so it is still God responsability over it. God can not blame the universe for anything because the universe is restricted as to how God programmed it. This ^

He isn't blameing us he is holding us accountable for our action. At his will if he doesn't like what the program has become he can still just wipe it out if he so chose.

Incorrect. A program can not become corrupt according to its own will. There are only two ways to corrupt a program : bad coding ( which is programmer's fault ) , or external problems like interaction with other programs( the blame is on the programmers involved). At the end of the day, it is all tracked back to God.
This ^

Here is where you have to become hypotical in the program. We as yet have not made a program to do it's own thing to continue to learn infintly. We have tried putting all that we know about the universe and applied it to a program. The program quickly fell apart. In order for man to make the program work the added unknown variables to it. I believe it was 95% unknowns (Dark Matter and Dark Energy). This rational like the program falls apart when applied there is to much we don't understand.

Also, if the programmer made two choices available , like in "right" and "wrong", then you can not blame the program for picking any of them. If the programmer wanted everyone to pick the option "right" then he should have just left the option "wrong" out of the program design.
This ^

I have a real answer for this but will keep to myself. However, the programmer made the program to run just as he planned. He knows when the program is going to fell, but will do many thing to keep it going. Until, he has deemed it no longer viable and chose to erase some or all of the program.

 

[thedope]

That which is real cannot be threatened.

We have a power of making distinctions, of distinguish one thing from another. That same power of making distinctions works very well for discerning function. This power is an important adaptation for survival. It is important to be able to tell the difference between a stone and a fruit. Seems pretty straightforward.

However there is another way of using this same power that totally subverts it's function and usefulness, confusing as opposed to defining, and that is the evaluation of "worthiness". Helpful, is a matter of timing and no amount of arbitration can make any clear distinctions in an emergent environment or space time continuum.

"Judgment" regards the world in comparison to an ideal model or preconceived notion and instead of using our system to glean information about the environment, looks for compliance to an imaginary model. This preoccupation of attention seriously compromises our situational awareness.

 

[Koldo]

Possibly, yeah. However, what is meant by "created"? Since the closest to creation of God that I think happened would be naturalistic laws that affect things. You know the stuff. Gravity 'n such.

Most people who believe in God think that he created the matter.

If you think otherwise it will lead to some rather peculiar scenarios. Anyway, even if the programmer was not the developer of the OS, he is still messing with it, and has the utmost responsability over the changes he makes.

I'm not someone who believes God 'blames' anyone. Such a concept appears rather silly to me.

However, on this, I'd like to ask a question, kind of playing Devil's Advocate.

I used to play a game called creatures. There are two terms that were used, "Wolfing Run", where the player (in this case, "God") hatches the creatures and then leaves them, possibly watching, possibly doing other things, possibly divinely AFK D). The other was "Feral Run", where the player would hatch them, then ignore them, then mess around every now and then.

Aren't these possible theories for what could happen? And, would these still mean God was responsible for things buggering up? I dunno.

Divine AFK Mode ON!

[joke]God had to go to the bathroom in a rush:

"-Brb guys! AFK 1 min!"

500 years passed...

1000 years passed....

2000 years passed....

"-Oh my Go...I mean, Oh myself! What a stomach ache! Glad i am done with it!....Oh, Where was i? Oh yea, gotta buy some popcorn! Brb guys! "[/joke]

Now seriously, in both wolf and feral runs, God is still responsible for their creatures. He could have choosen not to create them in the first place, but he did. It is just like when you give birth to a child, whatever you do doesn't change your responsability over it.

If God created the universe then he is responsible for everything in it, if he didn't then he is responsible for the results of the changes that he made to it.

Anyway, i like to think that God , at very least, created the consciouness of the other beings.

He isn't blameing us he is holding us accountable for our action. At his will if he doesn't like what the program has become he can still just wipe it out if he so chose.

To blame someone for something, or, to hold someone accountable, in this case ( at least ) means the same.

To blame = to hold someone responsible for something
To hold someone accountable = to consider someone responsible for something

God should consider himself responsible for his programming mistakes, if this was the case.
We can't do anything outside our programmed parameters.

Here is where you have to become hypotical in the program. We as yet have not made a program to do it's own thing to continue to learn infintly. We have tried putting all that we know about the universe and applied it to a program. The program quickly fell apart. In order for man to make the program work the added unknown variables to it. I believe it was 95% unknowns (Dark Matter and Dark Energy). This rational like the program falls apart when applied there is to much we don't understand.

I didn't get your point here.

However, the programmer made the program to run just as he planned. He knows when the program is going to fell, but will do many thing to keep it going. Until, he has deemed it no longer viable and chose to erase some or all of the program.

That is fine. But it still means the programmer really messed up if it gets to the point of having to erase the program.