God-Inspired Scripture

[Jabar]

Jonah didn't actually get swallowed by a big fish, and live there for three days. Didn't happen. It is just a teaching story. I read it as -

His choosing to run away out of fear, - rocked the boat (that course that YHVH had set) - and the resulting turbulent waves (of emotion) that he created, - engulfed him. It took him a terrifying three days (submerged in the dark) agonizing over his choices, - before he chose the way of YHVH, - and ascended out of the depths.

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That is how you read it as but that is not what actually happened.

 

[Ingledsva]

That is how you read it as but that is not what actually happened.

A lot of the Bible is teaching stories, and parables.

The Jonah story did NOT happen the way it is written. That is ridiculous. You cannot live for three days, under water, in the belly of a big fish.

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[Jabar]

A lot of the Bible is teaching stories, and parables.

The Jonah story did NOT happen the way it is written. That is ridiculous. You cannot live for three days, under water, in the belly of a big fish.

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To you it is illogical, but he prayed to God and was saved according to the Bible.

 

[Ingledsva]

To you it is illogical, but he prayed to God and was saved according to the Bible.

Not really - but let us look at it.

How did he survive drowning, and dissolving stomach juices, no food or water, and living in his own poop, for three days, before he prayed to YHVH and got his miracle???

The story makes absolutely no sense when taken literally.

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[Redemptionsong]

He never said he was dead.

Jonah was alive obviously.

When the verse says depths of the grave it does not mean he died, you are twisting your own scripture.

It is seen as a poetic turn of phrase meaning a agonizing and horrifying experience.

Same with Jesus, but he was not dead just as it states in the verse.

Jabar, I suggest you take some time and care over reading these scriptures. I am not trying to trick you!

If you look carefully, you will see that the words of the Bible are selected with great care and precision.

The passage in Jonah (2:1) says that Jonah was in the grave. When the word 'sheol' is used, it means 'grave', the place of dead souls. Since Jonah cried out from the grave, it shows us that Jonah's soul was conscious after his body had given up its life.

The passage also says, 'the earth with her bars was about me for ever'. If you are dead then it's 'for ever'. The only way you're going to be resurrected is if God raises you to life in an immortal body.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I am not envisioning anything. I go by what the Jews say about their Messiah. You folks are the ones trying to backslide Jesus into every text you can imagine him in.

What is he supposed to do for Israel? You were given their site which lists what their Messiah is supposed to do. And of course it lists why Jesus did not fulfill them.

Ingledsva, it's about time you adopted some opinions of your own! No two Jews think exactly the same thing, so which passages do you accept as genuine messianic prophecies and which do you dismiss?

You claim that the Jews are right to believe in a Messiah, the descendant of David, who will be a man without divinity. So explain to me how a Messiah can create an everlasting kingdom if he is mortal?

 

[Jabar]

Jabar, I suggest you take some time and care over reading these scriptures. I am not trying to trick you!

If you look carefully, you will see that the words of the Bible are selected with great care and precision.

The passage in Jonah (2:1) says that Jonah was in the grave. When the word 'sheol' is used, it means 'grave', the place of dead souls. Since Jonah cried out from the grave, it shows us that Jonah's soul was conscious after his body had given up its life.

The passage also says, 'the earth with her bars was about me for ever'. If you are dead then it's 'for ever'. The only way you're going to be resurrected is if God raises you to life in an immortal body.

Why are you twisting your own scripture?

It says in Jonah 2:1: From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God.

Haha, really?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Why are you twisting your own scripture?

It says in Jonah 2:1: From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God.

Haha, really?

Ok, Jabar. I prefer to use the King James Version. This is an old English translation from the original languages.

Jonah 2:1-6 . 'Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.'

Read the whole passage carefully. Where you see the word HELL, it comes from the Hebrew SHEOL, which means the grave, the place of departed souls.
Why do you think he said, 'I am cast out of thy sight?' One is only out of God's sight if the spirit has departed from a man and returned to God.
What is the holy temple towards which Jonah looks? Do you imagine it's the Temple in Jerusalem? No! It's the temple of his body!
Where do you think the mountains are? They're the underwater canyons. You don't sink down there and live!

YET, God has brought Jonah back to life (body, soul and spirit) and has caused the great fish to spew him up again, on the earth. This is his resurrection. This is why Jesus alluded to this SIGN! Jesus would also spend three days and nights dead in the grave. He too would be resurrected.

 

[metis]

The KJV has never been considered to be the most accurate, and the RSV and the NAB are quite a bit better because the authors went for more direct-word translation, which can sometimes make reading narratives more awkward rather than the more poetic prose of the KJV. One can access the RSV here: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/

 

[Jabar]

Ok, Jabar. I prefer to use the King James Version. This is an old English translation form the original languages.

Jonah 2:1-6 . 'Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.'

Read the whole passage carefully. Where you see the word HELL, it comes from the Hebrew SHEOL, which means the grave, the place of departed souls.
Why do you think he said, 'I am cast out of thy sight?' One is only out of God's sight if the spirit has departed from a man and returned to God.
What is the holy temple towards which Jonah looks? Do you imagine it's the Temple in Jerusalem? No! It's the temple of his body!
Where do you think the mountains are? They're the underwater canyons. You don't sink down there and live!

Once again you are twisting your own scripture.

I will use the King James Version that you say is accurate.

Why would he pray to God and not be saved, it is illogical.

When he said out of the belly of hell, that does not mean grave, that is absolute post hoc rationalization.

He is describing how terrifying it was in there.

Jonah 1:17 The King James version you speak of.

Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

"And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land." -Jonah 2:10
(King James Version)

If i say, it is raining cats and dogs, does that mean it actually is?

Pft, you are hilarious.

 

[Jabar]

Ok, Jabar. I prefer to use the King James Version. This is an old English translation form the original languages.

Jonah 2:1-6 . 'Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.'

Read the whole passage carefully. Where you see the word HELL, it comes from the Hebrew SHEOL, which means the grave, the place of departed souls.
Why do you think he said, 'I am cast out of thy sight?' One is only out of God's sight if the spirit has departed from a man and returned to God.
What is the holy temple towards which Jonah looks? Do you imagine it's the Temple in Jerusalem? No! It's the temple of his body!
Where do you think the mountains are? They're the underwater canyons. You don't sink down there and live!

YET, God has brought Jonah back to life (body, soul and spirit) and has caused the great fish to spew him up again, on the earth. This is his resurrection. This is why Jesus alluded to this SIGN! Jesus would also spend three days and nights dead in the grave. He too would be resurrected.

KJV: Psalm 11-16, (i am using the version you boast on)
For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

He was neither crucified nor resurrected, he was protected and lifted by God.

A. GOD will hear his cries (Psalm 91:15) and will save him (Psalm 91:3).

B. GOD will cover him with His Protection (Psalm 91:4).

C. Christ will then not have any fear in him (Psalm 91:5).

D. Christ will then observe with his own eyes the punishment of the crucified ones (Psalm 91:8).

E. No harm (this includes crucifixion!) or disaster will even come near Christ (Psalm 91:10….this even contradicts him getting beaten up before crucifixion).

F. GOD will send down the Angels to protect him and lift him (Psalm 91:11-12, 14, Isaiah 52:13). Not even his foot will strike the ground from his enemies pushing, grappling and punishment.

G. Christ’s call will be HEARD, and he will be delivered and honored (Psalm 91:15, Isaiah 52:13). No way would these verses be valid if Christ got crucified.

 

[Redemptionsong]

He was neither crucified nor resurrected, he was protected and lifted by God.

This is where the problem lies, Jabar. First you claim to believe in a Qur'an that says that the Gospels are the Word of God. Then you say that the Gospels don't have anything to say about the crucifixion and resurrection. Yet, if you were to take all the references to the crucifixion and resurrection out of the Gospels you would have completely torn the Gospels to shreds.
If you could come up with a comprehensive list of all the corruptions in the Bible, it would help us to work out what Muslims actually believe. At the moment, the weight of evidence seems to support the view that the Qur'an is false and the Bible is true.
Remember, the Bible does not have a need to tie itself to the Qur'an. The Qur'an is one man's prophecy, written over 23 years in the Arabian desert. The Bible was compiled by Jews living in a different land. The Bible is also a complete book, with the present heaven and earth accounted for, beginning to end.

 

[Jabar]

This is where the problem lies, Jabar. First you claim to believe in a Qur'an that says that the Gospels are the Word of God. Then you say that the Gospels don't have anything to say about the crucifixion and resurrection. Yet, if you were to take all the references to the crucifixion and resurrection out of the Gospels you would have completely torn the Gospels to shreds.
If you could come up with a comprehensive list of all the corruptions in the Bible, it would help us to work out what Muslims actually believe. At the moment, the weight of evidence seems to support the view that the Qur'an is false and the Bible is true.
Remember, the Bible does not have a need to tie itself to the Qur'an. The Qur'an is one man's prophecy, written over 23 years in the Arabian desert. The Bible was compiled by Jews living in a different land. The Bible is also a complete book, with the present heaven and earth accounted for, begiining to end.

I never said that?.

What are you saying? Accusing me of saying things.

Qur'an is divine, Bible is corrupted by people

 

[Redemptionsong]

Qur'an is divine, Bible is corrupted by people

If the Qur'an is divine then what do you make of this passage from Surah 19 'Maryam'?
According to the Muir translation it says, 'He (the child) said; Verily I am the servant of God; He hath given me the book, and made me a Prophet; And blessed me wheresoever I may be, and hath commanded me (to observe) prayer and almsgiving while I remain alive; And made me dutiful to my mother, and not overbearing nor wretched: - Peace be on me the day I was born, and the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised alive!' This is JESUS, the Word of truth, concerning whom they are in doubt.'

So Jesus was a prophet, who was given a book. Being a prophet, Jesus was given a book that contained God's word. Originally, it must have been an intact, perfect word, otherwise Jesus would not have been a prophet. So, the only way that the Gospels could have been corrupted is by other men who lived after Jesus. Is this what you think happened? Has God allowed the Gospels to be distorted beyond recognition?

In Sura 47 it says, 'And WE caused JESUS, the son of MARY, to follow in their footsteps, attesting the scripture, viz, the Law which preceded him. And We gave him the Gospel wherein are guidance and light, attesting the Law given before it, a direction and an admonition to the pious: - and that the people of the Gospel (Christians) might judge according to that which God hath revealed therein. AND WHOSOEVER DOTH NOT JUDGE ACCORDING TO THAT WHICH GOD HATH REVEALED, THEY ARE THE WICKED ONES.'

Here the Qur'an informs us that Christians will judge according to the words of the Gospel. But how can they if the words of the Gospels have been so utterly corrupted? What's more, the Gospel is meant to attest to the Law as well. But now you're telling me that the Law has been corrupted. So if the Law and the Gospels are corrupt, so too is the Qur'an!

Oh, dear, you really are in a mess.