God is Entropy

[Chazzer]

Making sense of all the external chaos we are surrounded by ensures a high entropy value.
As disorder decreases, peace and harmony prevails, the entropy value is decreased. The need for a God diminishes.
God is therefore not only love (which needs to be all inclusive) but understanding/wisdom also.
The concept of "God" being a value attributed to a personal growth/development system/scale that measures intellect and compassion.
Less a scale of love than a scale of truth. Through the trial of pain, suffering, loss, we gain pain and God.
As individuals we are all different, experiencing different levels of pain, making sense of disorder.
So the question is, how can we as individuals, decrease the level of disharmony/disorder in the outside world?

 

[Dickyh995]

Eh? I'm struggling to make any sense out of this. Can you please define entropy?

 

[Riverwolf]

Is the goal of decreasing disharmony/disorder for its own sake? Or is it for the sake of removing God-concepts?

'Cause as far as I'm concerned, the former is admirable, the latter is not.

 

[Straw Dog]

So the question is, how can we as individuals, decrease the level of disharmony/disorder in the outside world?

There is no chaos, only complexity. It it is our nature to assist in the transformation of energy into new forms. We, ourselves, are but transitory forms. 'Disorder' and 'order' are tentative terms signifying the agreeableness of circumstances relative to our value judgments.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So the question is, how can we as individuals, decrease the level of disharmony/disorder in the outside world?

I suppose we could all start by mowing our lawns and pruning our bushes.

 

[YmirGF]

So the question is, how can we as individuals, decrease the level of disharmony/disorder in the outside world?

By recognizing we are seeing our own flawed perception of reality and not necessarily reality as it is. That is not a sure thing, but it is a step in the right direction. Drop your expectations about how the world should behave and you just might begin to see how it really behaves. Oh, that and mowing the grass and pruning rogue bushes and obama's.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Eh? I'm struggling to make any sense out of this. Can you please define entropy?

Entropy is, to put it in easily understandable terms, the degree of disorder of a system. The OP is referring to the second law of thermodynamics (albeit in a vague way), which states that entropy of a system is always increasing- that is to say that it becomes more disordered. The problem is, they seem to have it backwards- entropy is not decreasing, we are not approaching a state of peace and harmony.

On the other hand, some apologists misinterpret this as proving that the emergence of life on Earth would be a violation of the second law, as it is a decrease in entropy- the problem is that local increases in entropy do NOT violate the second law, which refers to a closed system; and life is not a closed system.

 

[sarek]

Our views on entropy are necessarily limited because of our limited viewpoint. We are not able to perceive all spatial and temporal dimensions, thus we can not ascertain whether, taken on the scale of All that Is, entropy is really decreasing. Logically, it stands to reason that the total sum of entropy within the All remains constant.

 

[Dickyh995]

Thanks, that's how I understand Entropy. I wanted clarification as it seemed to me the OP had it backwards too.

 

[PolyHedral]

Our views on entropy are necessarily limited because of our limited viewpoint. We are not able to perceive all spatial and temporal dimensions, thus we can not ascertain whether, taken on the scale of All that Is, entropy is really decreasing. Logically, it stands to reason that the total sum of entropy within the All remains constant.

Contrariwise, we know the laws of physics would work wildly differently if there were any different number of dimensions to the universe.

 

[DawudTalut]

Making sense of all the external chaos we are surrounded by ensures a high entropy value.
As disorder decreases, peace and harmony prevails, the entropy value is decreased. The need for a God diminishes.
God is therefore not only love (which needs to be all inclusive) but understanding/wisdom also.
The concept of "God" being a value attributed to a personal growth/development system/scale that measures intellect and compassion.
Less a scale of love than a scale of truth. Through the trial of pain, suffering, loss, we gain pain and God.
As individuals we are all different, experiencing different levels of pain, making sense of disorder.
So the question is, how can we as individuals, decrease the level of disharmony/disorder in the outside world?

Peace be on you.

In all physically advanced countries, orderlines in material life exist while in underdeveloped countries, it does not......Should it mean:

1= People in countries with orderiless does not need God?
2= People in disordered countries need God and when they achieve order, they forget God?



LOVE OF GOD IS INBORN
Human has body and soul.....Parents' love for their child is inborn and is reflection of God-Human relation:

And when thy Lord brings forth from Adam’s children — out of their loins — their offspring and makes them witnesses against their own selves by saying: ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They say, ‘Yea, we do bear witness.’ This He does lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, ‘We were surely unaware of this.’

Holy Quran ch 7 - v173, alislam.org/quran




DISORDER DECREASES WHEN THERE IS JUSTICE AND MORE THAN JUSTICE AND AVOIDING SOME MATTERS COMPLETES THE PICTURE

.......when you judge between men, you judge with justice.......

Holy Quran ch 4 - v 59

Verily, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred; and forbids indecency, and manifest evil, and wrongful transgression. He admonished you that you may take heed.

Holy Quran ch 16 - v 91

...Prior to the full comprehension of entropy, the majority of scientists had believed that there was no need for a Creator because all forms of existence continued to exist eternally. Now a better understanding of entropy has revolutionized this view of at least some of the members of the scientific community.....

MORE: Entropy and the Finite Universe

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Logically, it stands to reason that the total sum of entropy within the All remains constant.

Um, no, not really... "What stands to reason" and "what is the case" do not necessarily coincide, especially not in physics.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

One just has to stare at multidimensional hypercubes and rotating tesseracts for long enough before they can actually realise it:

[youtube]BqfwPQvb7KA[/youtube]
Hypersphere - YouTube

 

[sarek]

Um, no, not really... "What stands to reason" and "what is the case" do not necessarily coincide, especially not in physics.

We are talking about something far beyond the scope of measurable physics here. Because of Gödels incompleteness theorem we can not fully describe the system we are part of, from within that system. It is quite possible, and even likely, that major elements of reality are and perhaps will forever be, beyond the scope of our sensing technology.

There are reasons(beyond the scope of this thread) to propose that the All that Is at the same time is Nothing. That can only be valid if the components of the All perfectly cancel each other out. That also applies to the amount of entropy.

 

[PolyHedral]

We are talking about something far beyond the scope of measurable physics here. Because of Gödels incompleteness theorem we can not fully describe the system we are part of, from within that system. It is quite possible, and even likely, that major elements of reality are and perhaps will forever be, beyond the scope of our sensing technology.

There are reasons(beyond the scope of this thread) to propose that the All that Is at the same time is Nothing. That can only be valid if the components of the All perfectly cancel each other out. That also applies to the amount of entropy.

Godel's theorem applies to logical systems, not physics. The rules of the two are very different.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

We are talking about something far beyond the scope of measurable physics here. Because of Gödels incompleteness theorem we can not fully describe the system we are part of, from within that system.

No, that's not what Godel's theorems say at all. For one thing, they apply to formal axiomatic systems (in particular, those powerful enough to express the natural numbers), not "systems" in the sense you're talking about here. And for another, the theorems state that there will be certain sentences (similar to liar sentences, i.e. "this sentence is false"), which are not decidable within that system, and that any given formal system powerful enough to express the natural numbers cannot prove its own consistency in its own language. Contrary to popular misconception, which is what you've given voice to here, this has no significant profound epistemological consequences (it has significant consequences for the meta-theory and philosophy of mathematics, but that's about it). It's simply a limitation of formal axiomatic systems (and it doesn't mean that even for formal systems, we cannot still test for consistency- we simply have to use a different language, and there are ways of dealing with self-referentiality as well)

In any case, it certainly doesn't give us grounds for vague crackpottery, such as claiming the second law of thermodynamics is false.

It is quite possible, and even likely, that major elements of reality are and perhaps will forever be, beyond the scope of our sensing technology.

That may well be, but if it is, it's a difference which makes no difference. And given that human experience is a part of reality, after all, if they can play no discernible role whatsoever in our experience, then they cannot be major constituents of all reality anyways.

And at this point, betting against our technological capabilities seems like a fool's bet.

There are reasons(beyond the scope of this thread) to propose that the All that Is at the same time is Nothing.

Not without redefining most of the words in the above sentence, because as it stands its simply contradictory nonsense. As if capitalizing words like "all" and "nothing" somehow lend them additional significance or profundity.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Godel's theorem applies to logical systems, not physics. The rules of the two are very different.

Exactly. And it doesn't imply "we cannot ever describe the universe from within the universe", or any such nonsense, despite the fact that we often hear it (mis)used in such a fashion.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

No, that's not what Godel's theorems say at all. For one thing, they apply to formal axiomatic systems (in particular, those powerful enough to express the natural numbers), not "systems" in the sense you're talking about here. And for another, the theorems state that there will be certain sentences (similar to liar sentences, i.e. "this sentence is false"), which are not decidable within that system, and that any given formal system powerful enough to express the natural numbers cannot prove its own consistency in its own language. Contrary to popular misconception, which is what you've given voice to here, this has no significant profound epistemological consequences (it has significant consequences for the meta-theory and philosophy of mathematics, but that's about it). It's simply a limitation of formal axiomatic systems (and it doesn't mean that even for formal systems, we cannot still test for consistency- we simply have to use a different language, and there are ways of dealing with self-referentiality as well)

In any case, it certainly doesn't give us grounds for vague crackpottery, such as claiming the second law of thermodynamics is false.

Schrodinger's Cat says 'meow'....or not.

 

[idav]

Making sense of all the external chaos we are surrounded by ensures a high entropy value.
As disorder decreases, peace and harmony prevails, the entropy value is decreased. The need for a God diminishes.
God is therefore not only love (which needs to be all inclusive) but understanding/wisdom also.
The concept of "God" being a value attributed to a personal growth/development system/scale that measures intellect and compassion.
Less a scale of love than a scale of truth. Through the trial of pain, suffering, loss, we gain pain and God.
As individuals we are all different, experiencing different levels of pain, making sense of disorder.
So the question is, how can we as individuals, decrease the level of disharmony/disorder in the outside world?

I can agree with this concept. In a universal system of energies that balance to zero, God would be a default existence of +1 rather than zero. It does sometimes become more orderly if a subsystem is created like that of our solar system and ecosystem.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

In a universal system of energies that balance to zero, God would be a default existence of +1 rather than zero.

:areyoucra Um... Why?