god is watching....hmmmm.

[waitasec]

i was going for my daily hike today and i over heard these bicyclists saying, "i saw a sign that says, 'no bicycling' but it's ok, no one is watching". i chuckled to myself thinking that i've heard this as an argument for god in that, if we didn't know he was watching us we would run amuck...

so does that mean for the believer, if they didn't adhere to god rules, would they live life without any sense of morality...? (i don't think that is true by any means btw) how then is that reconciled with the fact of atheists who do have a sense of morality...where does that come from? does it not come from the same place everyone gets it from... common sense and decency?

 

[Bismillah]

As I've stated in another thread

"The Qur'an states

The human soul and the way it has been adorned - with the inspiration of what is right for it and what is wrong - bears witness that whoever purifies it, shall succeed and whoever corrupts it, shall fail. (Al-Shams 91: 6 - 9)

Meaning we as humans have been given the intelligence to separate right from wrong. We know the difference between good and evil.

 

[Madhuri]

I agree that humans have an innate sense of morality. However, this is shaped differently within every individual based on his/her upbringing and experiences.

Of course we have morality because we have empathy and intelligence and the ability to recognise that our actions cause consequences.

Some people are more empathetic and sympathetic than others. Some people are more selfish than others. This will influence the intentions behind our actions. For some people, it takes believing that a God or big brother figure is watching us in order to act morally. For other people the idea that someone is or is not watching makes little to no difference in how we act. And this difference in personality occurs within both a religious or non religious context.

 

[waitasec]

As I've stated in another thread

"The Qur'an states

The human soul and the way it has been adorned - with the inspiration of what is right for it and what is wrong - bears witness that whoever purifies it, shall succeed and whoever corrupts it, shall fail. (Al-Shams 91: 6 - 9)

Meaning we as humans have been given the intelligence to separate right from wrong. We know the difference between good and evil.

yea, so?
but thinking you're being watched doesn't influence your actions?

 

[Bismillah]

but thinking you're being watched doesn't influence your actions?

I can formulate a basic sense of morality on my own, it is the knowledge of divine justice for all actions that will always motivate me to act in the best manner possible.

 

[Madhuri]

yea, so?
but thinking you're being watched doesn't influence your actions?

Read my response from above. It does influence some and will not influence others.

In fact, some people who believe God is watching will simply find a way to justify their immorality. Some won't care at all.
It depends on the individual.

 

[waitasec]

I can formulate a basic sense of morality on my own,

no one is questioning that...

it is the knowledge of divine justice for all actions that will always motivate me to act in the best manner possible.

so your answer is yes

 

[petewentz]

I really don't know how the world would change if there was no religion. It'll be a slow, dare I say, haha, evolution towards a non-theistic culture. That said, I do believe we are born with an innate sense of morality. Cultures survived long before the ten commandments, and though we are far more advanced today, so is our civility.

 

[waitasec]

Read my response from above. It does influence some and will not influence others.

In fact, some people who believe God is watching will simply find a way to justify their immorality. Some won't care at all.
It depends on the individual.

absolutely

 

[Bismillah]

so your answer is yes

Ah yes, because of knowing of divine justice it does indeed change my point of view on which actions I take in.

 

[Vendetta]

Bismillah, you're highly intelligent but I respectfully disagree that morality is innate. If that were the case there would be no need to discipline children.

 

[Bismillah]

Bismillah, you're highly intelligent but I respectfully disagree that morality is innate. If that were the case there would be no need to discipline children.

Check out this link Kohlberg's stages of moral development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't think it has the actual example of disciplining children which is actually a pity, it would have been the perfect tie in.

Children mentally mature over time but even they, at the stage of infancy, share a certain set of ideals. That is, morality based on love. Love for your own mother for example.

 

[outhouse]

I agree that humans have an innate sense of morality. However, this is shaped differently within every individual based on his/her upbringing and experiences.

Of course we have morality because we have empathy and intelligence and the ability to recognise that our actions cause consequences.

Some people are more empathetic and sympathetic than others. Some people are more selfish than others. This will influence the intentions behind our actions. For some people, it takes believing that a God or big brother figure is watching us in order to act morally. For other people the idea that someone is or is not watching makes little to no difference in how we act. And this difference in personality occurs within both a religious or non religious context.

I dont think good people use religion to stay in its guidelines, i wont argue a compass isnt there.

good people stay good and enjoy the moral compass but they dont need it for direction. Good people use church for companionship and getting out of the house and above all it makes them feel good about themselves and that their doing everything they can to be good honest people

I think most bad people use religion for forgiveness because it makes them feel better that their sins are washed away. a mulligan so to speak.

never seen anyone say "well god might not like that" ever

 

[waitasec]

Bismillah, you're highly intelligent but I respectfully disagree that morality is innate. If that were the case there would be no need to discipline children.

we discipline children to fit into our (adult) world.
children are not born with any biases...
children are giving and forgiving...
that is my experience as a mother...

 

[waitasec]

I dont think good people use religion to stay in its guidelines, i wont argue a compass isnt there.

good people stay good and enjoy the moral compass but they dont need it for direction. Good people use church for companionship and getting out of the house and above all it makes them feel good about themselves and that their doing everything they can to be good honest people

I think most bad people use religion for forgiveness because it makes them feel better that their sins are washed away. a mulligan so to speak.

never seen anyone say "well god might not like that" ever

i think that is what she meant by saying "some"...

 

[Madhuri]

Bismillah, you're highly intelligent but I respectfully disagree that morality is innate. If that were the case there would be no need to discipline children.

That is because there are parts of the brain the child has not yet developed. But humans naturally develop maturity and empathy and intelligence etc. and morality results naturally. Morality is innate to human beings. It occurs naturally with intelligence and observation, compassion and love etc.

 

[Madhuri]

I dont think good people use religion to stay in its guidelines, i wont argue a compass isnt there.

Absolutely. My point was it basically comes down to the individual and religion may or may not determine moral activity.

 

[waitasec]

Ah yes, because of knowing of divine justice it does indeed change my point of view on which actions I take in.

interesting, you stay on course
not because of how you value your integrity and self respect but because you are being watched...
how i understand that is, you are watching you and there is no way you can lie to yourself.
ahhh, now i can see how those to ideas are really the same...

 

[Vendetta]

Check out this link Kohlberg's stages of moral development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't think it has the actual example of disciplining children which is actually a pity, it would have been the perfect tie in.

Children mentally mature over time but even they, at the stage of infancy, share a certain set of ideals. That is, morality based on love. Love for your own mother for example.

I am aware of kohlbergs model which is a a very good model/theory but the key words I see is "moral development." Without complicating things allow me to kinda give you an idea:

The development of good and bad starts with physiology

Hunger =Discomfort which results in the need to satisfy the sensation

Touching a very hot surface = painful discomfort in the tactile senses

I believe the basis of all human development is contingent upon the discipline of our physiological sensations, that is when a baby cries you feed it. When a child touches the burning stove you teach the child to avoid it using verbal and non verbal communication. As far as your comment on love and forgiveness I believe all of that is dependent upon the chimes recognition of their dependence on the parental figure. A child doesn't come out the womb immediately loving its parents. As Freud puts it, the child actualizes the "ego" faculty of selfishness, "I want what I want, when I want." I believe children learn to love and forgive through the condition that their needs are met through the parental figure which thus creates a bond based on that.

I believe this bond develops into more complex attachments when the child gets older. In other words, instead of the parental figure being just a provider it becomes a mother. Eventually this idea of loving mother develops into higher complex forms of bonding.

 

[Bismillah]

not because of how you value your integrity and self respect

Where did I say that?

but because you are being watched

Because I believe every action will be requited? Clearly, I have already explained that I do something for "the sake of good".