God of Abraham monotheistic?

[siti]

So you're comparing Queen Victoria to scripture?

No - I'm comparing the use of plural pronouns in two fictitious quotations...its about language...anyway, my example does at least have the advantage of being attributed to someone who actually existed - even if she never really said it. LOL!

 

[Spartan]

This is God talking to the angels.

That explanation fails to address a number of problems. First, there is no indication found anywhere in the Bible that says angels can create life. Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that angels were ever made in the image and likeness of God. And finally, there is no indication from scripture that mankind was ever made in the likeness of angels.

 

[Spartan]

No - I'm comparing the use of plural pronouns in two fictitious quotations....

Show me your evidence the plural pronouns in Genesis are fictitious? Surely you have some reason for your claim, right?

 

[Jim]

I'll stick with what I presented, which is correct.

I’ll stick with what I presented, which is that God has no number. Or maybe, all numbers. In any case, not 3 and 1 only.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That explanation fails to address a number of problems. First, there is no indication found anywhere in the Bible that says angels can create life. Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that angels were ever made in the image and likeness of God. And finally, there is no indication from scripture that mankind was ever made in the likeness of angels.

Even Christians for the longest time interpreted the verse this way, believing that the angels assisted Hashem in his creation.

 

[siti]

Show me your evidence the plural pronouns in Genesis are fictitious? Surely you have some reason for your claim, right?

Oh dear! Oh dear! I'm guessing English is your first language is it? If you have so much trouble parsing a simple sentence in English, how can you possibly hope to understand the language of the Hebrew Bible?

Anyway, I did not say that the plural pronouns were fictitious, I said the quotes were...do you really want me to get into the evidence against the veracity and reliability of transmission of the text of the Bible on which your quotations are based? I'm not going to anyway - there are plenty of resources for you to research that for yourself - and its fine if you choose to believe it to be the verbatim Word of God but...

The use of plurality seems to be used fairly routinely in the Bible to express - possibly - either:

Excellence - pluralis excellentiae - the use of Elohim (or Adonim) in the plural with a singular verb or adjective - God - not gods - said or did this or that...which is, as I suggested analogous (though not exactly the same) as the "royal we" (pluralis majestatis) which is common in a number of languages (ancient and modern).

or, deliberation - such as in the two cases you cited - "God (Elohim -plural) said let us (plural)..." - IOW God - in his excellent majesty (denoted by the plural Elohim) is deliberating with himself...there is no support for plurality of persons in this - its just a literary device.

If you insist on reading pluraility of persons into these, you have a problem with verses such as Isaiah 19:4 where Yahweh (singular) declares that he will deliver Egypt into the hands of a cruel (singular adjective) master (adonim plural noun), and a fierce (singular adjective) King (singular noun)...adonim (being the plural form) would then (to be consistent with your understanding of Genesis 1:26) have to imply that this "fierce King" would be more than one person...

Anyway, like I said, one has to exercise caution in using literary devices to prove (or disprove) theological claims - I think the plurality of nouns and pronouns in scripture is almost certainly entirely irrelevant to the plurality or oneness of God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The God of Abraham doesn't look monotheistic to me. He looks like He doesn't have any number. Not one. Not three. Not many. Not even zero. Not even imaginary. Complex ... maybe. Different numbers at different times, with real and imaginary parts. I think that calling the religions in the line of Abraham "monotheistic" misses the whole point of scripture passages denouncing worship of other gods. It isn't about how many gods He is. It's about Who He(she/they/it/zir) Is(are). I learned that in a forum where people were debating about Trinity doctrines.

Maybe it is just like our Sun. We see the same sun each day, but each day more rays of life come our way. We also know of most of the suns attributes, but its Essence we do not.

Thus I see there is not a problem saying there is One God, but we see that God in many Attributes and many Names.

Regards Tony

 

[Spartan]

Oh dear! Oh dear! I'm guessing English is your first language is it? If you have so much trouble parsing a simple sentence in English, how can you possibly hope to understand the language of the Hebrew Bible?

Please save your sophomoric ad hominems for someone else.

Anyway, I did not say that the plural pronouns were fictitious, I said the quotes were...do you really want me to get into the evidence against the veracity and reliability of transmission of the text of the Bible on which your quotations are based? I'm not going to anyway - there are plenty of resources for you to research that for yourself - and its fine if you choose to believe it to be the verbatim Word of God but...

The use of plurality seems to be used fairly routinely in the Bible to express - possibly - either:

Excellence - pluralis excellentiae - the use of Elohim (or Adonim) in the plural with a singular verb or adjective - God - not gods - said or did this or that...which is, as I suggested analogous (though not exactly the same) as the "royal we" (pluralis majestatis) which is common in a number of languages (ancient and modern).

or, deliberation - such as in the two cases you cited - "God (Elohim -plural) said let us (plural)..." - IOW God - in his excellent majesty (denoted by the plural Elohim) is deliberating with himself...there is no support for plurality of persons in this - its just a literary device.

If you insist on reading pluraility of persons into these, you have a problem with verses such as Isaiah 19:4 where Yahweh (singular) declares that he will deliver Egypt into the hands of a cruel (singular adjective) master (adonim plural noun), and a fierce (singular adjective) King (singular noun)...adonim (being the plural form) would then (to be consistent with your understanding of Genesis 1:26) have to imply that this "fierce King" would be more than one person...

Anyway, like I said, one has to exercise caution in using literary devices to prove (or disprove) theological claims - I think the plurality of nouns and pronouns in scripture is almost certainly entirely irrelevant to the plurality or oneness of God.

I'll stick with what I previously presented.

Besides, the New Testament has already clarified these issues. Recommend you submit that to prayer.

 

[Spartan]

Even Christians for the longest time interpreted the verse this way, believing that the angels assisted Hashem in his creation.

And some are even still in the dark about it today.

Show me the verses where angels can create life?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And some are even still in the dark about it today.

Show me the verses where angels can create life?

Why, the very verses quoted just prior to my original comment about it referring to angels.

 

[Spartan]

Why, the very verses quoted just prior to my original comment about it referring to angels.

It doesn't even mention angels. That's what some people want to believe.

 

[siti]

Please save your sophomoric ad hominems for someone else.

...who can actually read them?

I'll stick with what I previously presented.

Besides, the New Testament has already clarified these issues.

OK - that's fine - as long as you are aware that literary devices are poor evidence in debates about theology.

Recommend you submit that to prayer.

That I certainly will leave for someone else.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It doesn't even mention angels. That's what some people want to believe.

It is the only logical belief, given that "Hear O Israel, the LORD is your God, the LORD is ONE."