God talking

[BilliardsBall]

I honestly think the gold is doing something to mask what catholics actually believe per their bible and tradition

You have trust in god before you repent, commune, and be born again. These things mean nothing without first having belief and trust in gods grace and his gift of salvation.

Baptism (salvation water or not depending on the church) or being born again is essential to salvation. You are giving yourself to god so you can be saved. You are physically acting in a spiritual act of trust, love, and grace.

You are expressing your love for god with all your body as well as your mind and heart. Nothings excluded.

Repentence is all throughout the bible. Like the first two and communion, there has always been a meal after sacrifice.

The RRC does not forbid it. They have it three to four times daily and four times sunday.

It just means people come together as one church to worship together. The idea is during worship, what holds people together is christ. Instead of just having individual devotion, one has it it with the body of christ (more than one person, christ is present-thats a church)

Gold, roseries, types of eucharist (grape juice, crackers, leven bread, wine) is no mere the point than these things bring people together as a church; one body of christ.

Baptism isnt baptism without trust in god

Communion isnt communion if you feel you are not one with brothers and sisters in christ

Repentence isnt repentence if you repent to a priest and not to god

Scripture reading means nothing without trust in god

These are the practices of the RCC

Whats beautiful is they actually --act-- in there trust in god. They worship and trust god together as one unit, community, family.

If gold blinds you to their trust in god (only) thats on you.

The catechism, their bible, and their mass all points to trust in god

By action
By word
By faith
By grace

The RCC actually puts more into worship as one body of many limbs than I see from any modern protestant church.

Episcopalian
Lutheran
Presbyterian
Othorodox
Roman catholic

Are all liturgical denominations. They all act in faith not just have trust.

Its not specifically Roman. I think thats a historical pet peeve which is understandable. Now we can actually understand the church without getting killed for disbelief.

That is if people put away their bias and commune as one church.

I appreciate what you shared and how you shared it. The most important words of all are the words of God, the Vox Dei. God says our repentance, works, relationships, efforts, prayers and etc. are not efficient for salvation. Salvation is being made perfect, in the future having trusted in Christ beforehand, so that we can live in a new community where no one hurts anyone. This comes through the cross and trusting Christ, no other way IMO.

The Roman church teaches on an official basis that the cross is not enough to keep people from the flames of purgatory.

 

[BilliardsBall]

@BilliardsBall

I read both protestant and catholic bibles, been to JW sermons, baptist (southern and nothern), Episcopal. Prysb. and Pentecostal. UU (broke from the church)

Lutergical churches do best with communal worship, devotion, resources for strengthening faith, reading the gospel together. Prys. Pen. churches do well with more informal family like with food afterwards in some churches and basic socialization with like members after sermon. JW does well in bible study though I havent read their bible before.

If I went off devotion and being one with christ, Id say catholic. If I want to have a family like sermon, Id go to say pent or prysb. If I wanted more bible study, Id go to JW

But no one wants to come together as one Church.

Im sure JW's bible says come together in christ
The catholic bible existed long before the one you probably using

Go beyond the gold.

Catholics do have trust in god

Having attended JW Bible studies, I can say from experience we don't study the Bible, we study specific questions and answer books that teach the JW perspective on the Bible, which further teaches the cross is insufficient for eternal life and assurance.

 

[BilliardsBall]

@BilliardsBall

This is short. Something I just thought about

Can you provide two or three verses that are different both in content and in context from the Catholic Bible and the "Protestant" one?

Not the missing books protestants have, but something very clear-cut.



One common debate is that the second commandment is missing in the catholic bible. This is so untrue that even history would laugh at this.

Are there others I haven't heard before?

(Even those not in the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

That's not a common debate, but as a child, I owned a Catholic print for display of the ten commandments where the biblical 10 was broken to 9 and 10, "neighbor coveting and neighbor goods coveting" then to get to 10, the idolatry commandment was removed.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Having attended JW Bible studies, I can say from experience we don't study the Bible, we study specific questions and answer books that teach the JW perspective on the Bible, which further teaches the cross is insufficient for eternal life and assurance.

I had close JW friends who studied the bible ans watchtower with me. Even the hall had long sermons of back an forth watchtower readings. Out of all denominations, Id say they have good knowledge of scripture. Their bias s a result it really makes it less welcoming to be committed.

 

[paarsurrey]

Please don't emphasize unless it's truly necessary.



1. Be baptized in water and in the spirit of christ, his father, via the holy spirit by faith

Catholics (I can't speak for other denominations), believe that in order to be saved in the body of christ, you must be baptized both in water and the spirit. The water is necessary because it mimics the former ways of baptism before jesus. The latter is necessary because you cannot be saved into the body of christ but with the spirit itself. You need both.

Water: OT
Spirit: NT
Both for salvation because of the communion between old and new onto salvation.

2. Repentance. You confess your sins to the body so you can be part of the body in apology, thus with christ, thus with his father. Its all about the body of christ which is christ himself.

James 5:16 Praying to each other
Mathew 25:40 Whatever you do to your brother, you do to me/jesus

3. Communion. When one is baptized and repents, they commune at the lords table. Since communion doesnt end with jesus meal, they feel communion, as per the word itself, brings the body wthin, through, jesus himself via the core meal, the soul of christ, the eucharist.

Communion
Eucharist
Meal

John 6:53-57
Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Compared to Sacrifice Chart

Catholics repeat the sacrifice of the OT from the lambs as offerings of repentance as they do jesus being the "lamb of god". The priests offers the lamb to god so that there is a forgiveness of sins for the body of christ. Everyone consumes of the body and blood and, through them, they are saved.

In order to be fully in the body of christ, one must be baptized, repent, and commune.

Baptized in spirit and water
Repent to body of believers and god
Commune between like believers unto god through christ

I did it long on purpose. I'm not one to just quote verses without context and point behind them; or, we'd be talking over semantics for hours.

One has quoted from a narrator/scribe, not from Jesus, please.
Regards

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's not a common debate, but as a child, I owned a Catholic print for display of the ten commandments where the biblical 10 was broken to 9 and 10, "neighbor coveting and neighbor goods coveting" then to get to 10, the idolatry commandment was removed.

Really? Their bible has all commandments and CCC has it in the first whole chapter of loving god only. The a whole chapter in itself on idolism. Romans killed Pagans for worshiping people and statues as god. They used to have free standing statues but now made them mortifs (if thats the name) relieved statues on jabs of churches so people cant walk around it to worship.

Its not a Catholic teaching. People rub statues here a lot, but not many worship them. Those that do probably never read their bible, CCC, and the point of Mass.

Im more forcused on Catholic doctrine not what is emphasied in one church over another. If you start from their Bible and CCC to proved catholicism is false, thats one thing. Going by experiences are totally different. If I went off people, Id think jesus is actually god. If I went off scripture, I know hes just god incarnate. Big difference.

Its nice to go off people. Most will say its more deeper than that. Not indoctrination view; but that, I cannot imagine..

 

[paarsurrey]

I had close JW friends who studied the bible ans watchtower with me. Even the hall had long sermons of back an forth watchtower readings. Out of all denominations, Id say they have good knowledge of scripture. Their bias s a result it really makes it less welcoming to be committed.

I believe they never quote anything from Jesus, please.
Regards

 

[BilliardsBall]

I had close JW friends who studied the bible ans watchtower with me. Even the hall had long sermons of back an forth watchtower readings. Out of all denominations, Id say they have good knowledge of scripture. Their bias s a result it really makes it less welcoming to be committed.

That's for "advanced" JWs. When people like me show interest, the studies are actually doctrinal indoctrination, as I understand it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Really? Their bible has all commandments and CCC has it in the first whole chapter of loving god only. The a whole chapter in itself on idolism. Romans killed Pagans for worshiping people and statues as god. They used to have free standing statues but now made them mortifs (if thats the name) relieved statues on jabs of churches so people cant walk around it to worship.

Its not a Catholic teaching. People rub statues here a lot, but not many worship them. Those that do probably never read their bible, CCC, and the point of Mass.

Im more forcused on Catholic doctrine not what is emphasied in one church over another. If you start from their Bible and CCC to proved catholicism is false, thats one thing. Going by experiences are totally different. If I went off people, Id think jesus is actually god. If I went off scripture, I know hes just god incarnate. Big difference.

Its nice to go off people. Most will say its more deeper than that. Not indoctrination view; but that, I cannot imagine..

I said "I owned a print" and not "I have an altered Catholic Bible".

I'm aware of iconography used as "reminders" of God by the RCC. I have the Bible when I want to "be reminded of Jesus", not a graven idol, however, THAT is irrelevant. The only relevant doctrine I care about with the RCC is they say one must have works to please and appease God, not the cross and resurrection, trusting Jesus only to be saved.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I said "I owned a print" and not "I have an altered Catholic Bible".

I'm aware of iconography used as "reminders" of God by the RCC. I have the Bible when I want to "be reminded of Jesus", not a graven idol, however, THAT is irrelevant. The only relevant doctrine I care about with the RCC is they say one must have works to please and appease God, not the cross and resurrection, trusting Jesus only to be saved.

I see it, the works part, as interelated. Instead of belief first, work later. Its belief and work (spirit and water, i.e.) work as one. I dont see many"works" unless you mean bibke study, charity, helping less income folks, food pantries, and retreats, I dont know what works you refer to thats a Must for salvation. Ritual, yes. But works??

I honestly, truely think if you are not "getting the devotion of the Church" no matter how much you study and raised with, if its against your intuition, it wont work. Its a highly personal (no one tells another what they confess to god about) and I rarely hear a catholic tell a noncatholic what they felt when with the Eucharist.

I havent lived around rude catholics who push doctrine. Everyone and priest I met showed ans taught scripture by what one does for others (do for others, you do for christ scripture). Its less individualize so the body is a symbol. Its an actual Body of people together in worship.

Also, its not roman catholic. Its epis', othorodox, lutheran, methodist, and prys' who are lurtigical devotional denominations. They have a communal relationship with christ but they definitely dont believe the exact same thing.

It goes beyond denominations and works. Its a deep seated faith, grace, and love for christ himself. To any person who doesnt understand that, indoctrinated or not, just "wont get it." Jesus didnt sit at the side lines and talked about faith. He acted in it.

Not by denominations but by one Body of Christ.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's for "advanced" JWs. When people like me show interest, the studies are actually doctrinal indoctrination, as I understand it.

I dont know. I was fortunate I dont have that inner bias and negativity over a religion I disagree with. I mean, I was surprised some buddhist sects can be evangelical. And they dont hid their means to convert.

I try not to get myself ratttled in christian nonesense. I understand why indoctrination in catholicism is very, how do I say, influential. I cant imagine growing up in a family who pushed god. Confession. And Mass without actually letting thr child understand it for himself when he is older.

But that isnt what Church teaches. It isnt in their bible nor CCC to teach indoctrination. There are no aka works in their bible that is meant to save. The rituals are just traditions continued from scripture. Its one thing to disagree, its another belittle it. Its like belittling the heart of god.

I dont think many get that. Not just some protestants but some catholics too. What you do for others, you do for christ.

Christianity is about The Church. The body of Christ. Communal worship. Communal salvation. Communal works. All individual limbs and one body.

Once you are away from the body, to whom are your works for? How are you a body of christ without the other limbs to make it up?

Church: body of christ not lutheran, roman, othorodox, or epis' etc denomini

 

[BilliardsBall]

I see it, the works part, as interelated. Instead of belief first, work later. Its belief and work (spirit and water, i.e.) work as one. I dont see many"works" unless you mean bibke study, charity, helping less income folks, food pantries, and retreats, I dont know what works you refer to thats a Must for salvation. Ritual, yes. But works??

I honestly, truely think if you are not "getting the devotion of the Church" no matter how much you study and raised with, if its against your intuition, it wont work. Its a highly personal (no one tells another what they confess to god about) and I rarely hear a catholic tell a noncatholic what they felt when with the Eucharist.

I havent lived around rude catholics who push doctrine. Everyone and priest I met showed ans taught scripture by what one does for others (do for others, you do for christ scripture). Its less individualize so the body is a symbol. Its an actual Body of people together in worship.

Also, its not roman catholic. Its epis', othorodox, lutheran, methodist, and prys' who are lurtigical devotional denominations. They have a communal relationship with christ but they definitely dont believe the exact same thing.

It goes beyond denominations and works. Its a deep seated faith, grace, and love for christ himself. To any person who doesnt understand that, indoctrinated or not, just "wont get it." Jesus didnt sit at the side lines and talked about faith. He acted in it.

Not by denominations but by one Body of Christ.

My original point: you will meet "rude priests" as you wrote, when you tell them you don't need their priestcraft, because Jesus Christ saved you, not by works, but by faith!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I dont know. I was fortunate I dont have that inner bias and negativity over a religion I disagree with. I mean, I was surprised some buddhist sects can be evangelical. And they dont hid their means to convert.

I try not to get myself ratttled in christian nonesense. I understand why indoctrination in catholicism is very, how do I say, influential. I cant imagine growing up in a family who pushed god. Confession. And Mass without actually letting thr child understand it for himself when he is older.

But that isnt what Church teaches. It isnt in their bible nor CCC to teach indoctrination. There are no aka works in their bible that is meant to save. The rituals are just traditions continued from scripture. Its one thing to disagree, its another belittle it. Its like belittling the heart of god.

I dont think many get that. Not just some protestants but some catholics too. What you do for others, you do for christ.

Christianity is about The Church. The body of Christ. Communal worship. Communal salvation. Communal works. All individual limbs and one body.

Once you are away from the body, to whom are your works for? How are you a body of christ without the other limbs to make it up?

Church: body of christ not lutheran, roman, othorodox, or epis' etc denomini

I appreciate your desire for love, peace and unity--and that you therefore see Christianity as about the Body of Christ. I see Christianity as revolving around Christ.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My original point: you will meet "rude priests" as you wrote, when you tell them you don't need their priestcraft, because Jesus Christ saved you, not by works, but by faith!

Haha! Thats like going to my neurologist and telling him, you're practicing doctorcraft and dont go to the doctors again---thinking god will bless me without needing to go to the doctors.

I would be dead if I did that.

I got yelled at by parents, insulted by pastors, been left by friends, and I have good moments with each and more. Their role in life doesnt exnay who I ask for advice compared to who will bless me with the answers.

Thats.

Just.

Silly.

You actually think priest save people!!????

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I appreciate your desire for love, peace and unity--and that you therefore see Christianity as about the Body of Christ. I see Christianity as revolving around Christ.

Yes. With priests, pastors, people, saints, and all believers included. Id never say someone is not practicing real christianity. Thats not my place as a non-christian. Id be a hypcocrite if I were.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Haha! Thats like going to my neurologist and telling him, you're practicing doctorcraft and dont go to the doctors again---thinking god will bless me without needing to go to the doctors.

I would be dead if I did that.

I got yelled at by parents, insulted by pastors, been left by friends, and I have good moments with each and more. Their role in life doesnt exnay who I ask for advice compared to who will bless me with the answers.

Thats.

Just.

Silly.

You actually think priest save people!!????

I understand official RCC doctrine, as it comes in volumes bearing the imprimatur of the Index of the Holy See.

Official RCC doctrine is that faith in Jesus Christ (therefore, Christ's cross and resurrection) is insufficient to save.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes. With priests, pastors, people, saints, and all believers included. Id never say someone is not practicing real christianity. Thats not my place as a non-christian. Id be a hypcocrite if I were.

Or . . . discerning. It's YOUR place to stay in a real church or join a cultic group, due to lack of knowledge. We both know there are cultists who claim to be Christians but are not.

Likewise, as long as official RCC doctrine is Jesus cannot save people without our own help, I cannot be a Catholic or say EVERY Catholic is "practicing real Christianity".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand official RCC doctrine, as it comes in volumes bearing the imprimatur of the Index of the Holy See.

Official RCC doctrine is that faith in Jesus Christ (therefore, Christ's cross and resurrection) is insufficient to save.

Its faith only that doesnt save. Since jesus promoted people to work as a body/people/mass. Communal salvation not individual. Works are with faith not the result of it. To me, works without faith for salvation is the easy way out. When christians die it says they will be judged by their deeds not just their faith. What prophets did for god not for just their trust in him. Their obedience unto salvation. Thats all throughout scripture.

Faith isnt enough. If thats the case, people can just lay around and say they are saved. Thats why people who are sick get blessings that god will bless them since they cant worship in action with the body given their condition. Ask god to pardon their inability to be at service to god and to brothers snd sisters of christ.

It also raises the standards in which a christian should become devoted to god. Nothing is free. Grace comes from action of service and trust of promise that one's actions will let god see them well in his eyes.

It all goes together.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I dont have issues with The Church nor do I baptist, epis, pentecostal, whatever. No bad experiences. Christians seem more divided by their own body than non-christians are. Whats that all about?

Or . . . discerning. It's YOUR place to stay in a real church or join a cultic group, due to lack of knowledge. We both know there are cultists who claim to be Christians but are not.

My point above point. Does christ bless you for putting down other denominations? So, not attractive.

The bible brought me to the Church. I was a convert and never indoctrinated.

You're talking to the WRONG person if you have hang ups with your own people. Human beings.

So, that means, *cough* I wasnt a real christian based on demination rather than faith in christ??

Sounds like a double standard. I thought you dont need works to be saved?? But you gotta have the right denomination????

Likewise, as long as official RCC doctrine is Jesus cannot save people without our own help, I cannot be a Catholic or say EVERY Catholic is "practicing real Christianity".

Baptism is what saves in the RCC. Communion is worshiping in the body of christ with christ as the spirit of the body.

But because they are catholic, you accuse them anyway. ONE body not pick or chose. Insult one you insult them all.

Actual people.

Dont know why you (all) have hang ups over the church. Id never joined christianity if I were on RF first. So much hate.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Its faith only that doesnt save. Since jesus promoted people to work as a body/people/mass. Communal salvation not individual. Works are with faith not the result of it. To me, works without faith for salvation is the easy way out. When christians die it says they will be judged by their deeds not just their faith. What prophets did for god not for just their trust in him. Their obedience unto salvation. Thats all throughout scripture.

Faith isnt enough. If thats the case, people can just lay around and say they are saved. Thats why people who are sick get blessings that god will bless them since they cant worship in action with the body given their condition. Ask god to pardon their inability to be at service to god and to brothers snd sisters of christ.

It also raises the standards in which a christian should become devoted to god. Nothing is free. Grace comes from action of service and trust of promise that one's actions will let god see them well in his eyes.

It all goes together.

Thank you for your note, but grace, in the Bible God's unmerited favor, comes from Jesus being beaten to a pulp by man before God's wrath was poured upon Him to expiate our sin. There are hundreds of verses in both testaments that the Messiah did it all, and we can add nothing to our salvation.

I'm for Christians "doing right" as you wrote, however, only perfect people can live in a utopia. We aren't saved by being better, but by becoming morally perfect, which requires supernatural power when we meet Jesus in person, not human effort.

It is not "all throughout scripture that obedience leads to salvation," rather, the NT says over 150 times, some version of "trust Jesus only for salvation, only Jesus may be trusted for salvation." I will not be in Heaven telling God, "Look at me! I did it!" but will be in Heaven saying, "Thank YOU for dying a horrible death on the cross, though you were innocent, to save me."

I also understand what you are saying as far as "it looks like lazy people could get into Heaven that way", however, Jesus changes people, particularly after salvation. However, the parable of the workers is about you and me, complaining that "someone got the full pay last minute for no work," meaning yes, someone can have a change of heart late in life and still get to Heaven.

Thank you.