Gods as ancestors

[EyeofOdin]

I've been hearing a lot about people saying that the gods are the ancestral spirits of tribal chieftains or kings.

I think that this is a very cool idea to have, that the gods were once humans who lead people to victory, however I don't think that it's historically accurate. The idea that the gods were humans actually comes from Christians who had their childhood stories and wanted to believe that they were true, but weren't allowed to believe in pagan gods, so they rationalized it all and said that the "gods" were really either great kings and chieftains elevated into godhood or they were huns coming from the east.

The gods have very ancient origins, and these origins are shared by all Proto-Indo-European deities. Indra, Thunar and Tanaris all come from a PIE deity of thunder and lightning, and this deity probably comes from an older African deity that wasn't dissimilar to the West African god Shango.

 

[Quintessence]

In the context of these discussions you are hearing, what do the people mean when they say "gods?" I ask because to me, "gods" is simply a term that designates that which a person finds worthy of worship. That includes things like ancestral spirits or tribal chiefs/kings.

 

[Sees]

In the context of these discussions you are hearing, what do the people mean when they say "gods?" I ask because to me, "gods" is simply a term that designates that which a person finds worthy of worship. That includes things like ancestral spirits or tribal chiefs/kings.

Some say the historical pantheons were deified ancestors, like Snorri Sturlason said of the Norse/Germanic Gods. He wrote that they were ancient PIE chieftains who became more glorious over the ages until deification. Others theorized that this was his way of lessening the demonization of the old traditions and ensuring that they would survive while Church/Christian influence and power reigned. I think it has also been done for Hellenic Gods and others but I don't know much about that.

I know some "folkish" people actually believe the same within the Ásatrú umbrella, though most see the Gods as ancestors and family but not the early/ancient humans type.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Some say the historical pantheons were deified ancestors, like Snorri Sturlason said of the Norse/Germanic Gods. He wrote that they were ancient PIE chieftains who became more glorious over the ages until deification. Others theorized that this was his way of lessening the demonization of the old traditions and ensuring that they would survive while Church/Christian influence and power reigned. I think it has also been done for Hellenic Gods and others but I don't know much about that.

I know some "folkish" people actually believe the same within the Ásatrú umbrella, though most see the Gods as ancestors and family but not the early/ancient humans type.

From the anthropological literature there is some evidence of apotheosis in some cases, but overall it seems to have been a trend in thought early in the development of the 'science' of anthropology (back in the 1800s) that has become less accepted as time has passed. Snorri may well have claimed that in the manner you state, but that doesn't mean that he, or anyone else, really believed it.

 

[EyeofOdin]

In the context of these discussions you are hearing, what do the people mean when they say "gods?" I ask because to me, "gods" is simply a term that designates that which a person finds worthy of worship. That includes things like ancestral spirits or tribal chiefs/kings.

I absolutely believe that ancestors can be elevated into a state of godhood, but I have a hard time believing that the Aesir or Vanir were simply people and they were elevated into godhood after death. There's extensive Lore and Comparative Mythology showing these beings as obviously not being ancestral spirits, but cosmological powers. How can Odin, Vili and Ve take part in the creation of the world and at the same time be simple human PIE chieftains? Did they incarnate themselves after humanity evolved? Or did they not exist until their human incarnation was formed?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Heathen opinion varies. In England, some members of the Odinic Rite regard the royal family as descendants of Odin, while the Hammarens Ordens Sallskap doesn't believe in Odin.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think there's a degree of this in some of the Gods, but not in all cases. If anything is primarily being deified, it's elements that are very much not human(Dionysus = Wine; Odin = Ecstasy), and then maybe later being equated with a human King or Hero that somehow embodied those qualities. However, even that's far too simplified to explain away what's going on, and I'm not a fan of Gods as Explanations, anyway.

Far as I'm concerned, Human Gods are generally Kings already, part of a line. Pharaohs, for example, or one of the last such God-Kings still around, Emperor Akihito. (Since the Aethelings, or the Royal families of Europe, have pretty much long denounced their descendance from Woden.) Ancestors are just ancestors, and many of the Named Gods have origins which we don't truly know, even when explained in various stories.

 

[LuisDantas]

Aren't the Japanese Emperors understood to be descendants from the Kami, and specifically of Amaterasu?

Didn't ancient Spartans think of themselves as descended from Hercules?

It seems to me that this is a recurrent theme, albeit not an universal one.

 

[Whiterain]

Numerous European Surnames descended from the Pagan deities. These clans went into hiding or were destroyed over the centuries.

Mac Lir's
Odinssons
Thorssons


There's numerous clans, whether they claim the Pagan heritage is another story.

 

[EyeofOdin]

Numerous European Surnames descended from the Pagan deities. These clans went into hiding or were destroyed over the centuries.

Mac Lir's
Odinssons
Thorssons


There's numerous clans, whether they claim the Pagan heritage is another story.

Yes but these surnames come from the family myths that the deity had come down in human form and founded the family with a human. Caesar claimed lineage from Venus, but that doesn't mean that Venus started human and ascended into godhood.

 

[Brinne]

Aren't the Japanese Emperors understood to be descendants from the Kami, and specifically of Amaterasu?

Didn't ancient Spartans think of themselves as descended from Hercules?

It seems to me that this is a recurrent theme, albeit not an universal one.

Yes Luis you are correct. Also multiple emperors and leaders (Jimmu, Meiji, and Nobunaga) have been deified in a way. However, statistically speaking I believe they are less worshipped than say Inari or Amaterasu. Scholars have been deified too like the exile Tsugawara no Michizane (Tenjin). It I said that after he died a series of natural diasters occurred util his record as an exile was expunged and he was deified and buried properly.

The first emperor is said to be a kami, actually. But I think, like it's been pointed out before in the thread, we have to be conscious of how we are defining "gods". In the western sense of the word the kami would not fall into that category, since kami is kind of its own thing. Eastern worship tends to be far different than Western worship.

 

[Whiterain]

What was the consensus on this? Did anyone believe Kings and Cheiftains did descend
form the original pantheons/kingdoms of the Gods?

Kingdom of the Gods -> Kingdom of Ireland/ Norway/ Germany/ England/ Sweden... ect.

I do.

Although the English Royal family is still reigning England, that lineage isn't exactly going back
to the first King of England, to my knowledge. I'm not familiar with the lineage of the English
royal family though, they more than likely don't accept it.

 

[EyeofOdin]

What was the consensus on this? Did anyone believe Kings and Cheiftains did descend
form the original pantheons/kingdoms of the Gods?

Kingdom of the Gods -> Kingdom of Ireland/ Norway/ Germany/ England/ Sweden... ect.

I do.

Although the English Royal family is still reigning England, that lineage isn't exactly going back
to the first King of England, to my knowledge. I'm not familiar with the lineage of the English
royal family though, they more than likely don't accept it.

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that most leaders, such as kings and other royal figures, didn't claim divine blood. They most certainly did. With that said, that doesn't mean that the belief in gods as ascended ancestors who were once human kings is historical. Personally, I think that Folkish Asatruars made it up without any historical digging. I find it hard to believe that the Pre-Christians believed that Odin, Vili and Ve were human, mortal chieftains AND they somehow killed a giant as large as everything that exists, thus creating the Multiverse.

 

[Whiterain]

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that most leaders, such as kings and other royal figures, didn't claim divine blood. They most certainly did. With that said, that doesn't mean that the belief in gods as ascended ancestors who were once human kings is historical. Personally, I think that Folkish Asatruars made it up without any historical digging. I find it hard to believe that the Pre-Christians believed that Odin, Vili and Ve were human, mortal chieftains AND they somehow killed a giant as large as everything that exists, thus creating the Multiverse.

The myth and lore behind Odin and most of the gods is going to be a
mystery. I'm quite certain there were numerous myths behind the origin of
the gods not just the popular ones.

I'm sure Odin was/ is accepted as an ancient chieftain. I think the myths go back as far as the Ice age,
10,000 years or so. I think that the myths go back as far as the Ice age consciously, but, indefinitely further.
Then there's the Indo-Europeans and all, I think Norse myth is mostly contextual to the original beliefs, if not the original beliefs.

It's mostly a conscious feeling to me. Most people like Wizard Odin not
Cheiftain Odin.

As far as the birth of Odin and his brothers and the creation of the region, or
kingdom -> pantheon, there were numerous version, I believed.

One were Odin was born from his Mother, a giant. Than one where he was born from his Mother,
a giant, rubbing her feet together. Then one were he was born from his Fathers arm pit.

As far as Ymir, he was a evil cannibalistic giant, said to be Odin's Grandfather
and he and his brothers slaughter him. Then they ball him up into the Earth,
and are cosmic deities.

Old Norse is difficult to translate, I guess.

Edit:

Jesus was accepted as the King of King's as well, I'm certain that was one of the transitions during the conversion to Catholicism/Christianity from Paganism.