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God's love and the destruction of Sodom? How is this reconciled?

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
In another thread a poster said, God might be seen as immoral.
There might not be any positive message from the Sodom story, according to her.
She doubts that this was fair trial and a jury. Only one that inspires fear, according to her.

In my view it's like that:
If he would allowed the people of Sodom to live on... potential guests passing through would have been raped.
They would have complained about this before God "God why do you create a world in which people get raped like that?"

So he changed his creation a bit and took Sodom off the map.

It could be that God wanted to save him all the complaining from potential future rape victims.
That's my take on the matter at least.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
It could be that God wanted to save him all the complaining from potential future rape victims.
Yes, He might not have wanted him to become target of the "meToo" movement.

And we do not need to consider Sodom to see the immorality of God. The Bible is full of evidence of it. I would say that it is probabilistic easier to find it by just randomly browsing your "Holy" Book.

Ciao

- viole
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
If G-d hadn't destroyed it folks would complain He isn't just and why didn't He destroy the wicked?

Can't win.
But that's just it... wouldn't He (God) have the ability to destroy JUST THE WICKED? Could He accomplish this, or no? Couldn't He even make it such that as He was destroying them, He made everyone else in the city understand and witness all the atrocities they committed, so that they would know that the destruction of each individual was justice for wrongs committed?

Maybe someone should give the "all powerful" mantle to me. I'd certainly have a better, more logical go at it than God appears to have.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
In another thread a poster said, God might be seen as immoral.
There might not be any positive message from the Sodom story, according to her.
She doubts that this was fair trial and a jury. Only one that inspires fear, according to her.

In my view it's like that:
If he would allowed the people of Sodom to live on... potential guests passing through would have been raped.
They would have complained about this before God "God why do you create a world in which people get raped like that?"

So he changed his creation a bit and took Sodom off the map.

It could be that God wanted to save him all the complaining from potential future rape victims.
That's my take on the matter at least.

Okay, fair enough. Leaving Sodom as it was might have caused harm to unwary travellers which is a decent enough reason to do something about it.

The thing is though, if God is omnipotent then just destroying the city seems vindictive. Here are a few alternatives off the top of my head:

1. Move the city into a bubble in space. It'll be inaccessible to travellers and an omnipotent being should have no trouble keeping the citizens fed.

2. Enchant the land around the city to turn travellers away. Fairy folklore has plenty of examples of magical forests and paths that steer people towards or away from something. God should have no problem topping that. If he's feeling kind, perhaps the enchanted land would direct thirsty travellers towards fresh water and hungry travellers towards a fruit orchard.

3. Physically manifest before every traveller and yell, "Don't go that way! The people there will rape you!" That should do the trick.

4. Put everybody in the city into a magical sleep. This is another favourite of the fairies and would be a kinder option than outright killing the citizens.

5. Put a forcefield around any travellers who enter the city so that the citizens can't touch them. You're preventing rape without interfering with free will and without resorting to killing.


I'm sure I could go on but hopefully you get the point. An omnipotent being is never short on options. Anything he/she/it does is because they either didn't think it through (unless of course they also happen to be omniscient) or because they want to do it.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
In another thread a poster said, God might be seen as immoral.
There might not be any positive message from the Sodom story, according to her.
She doubts that this was fair trial and a jury. Only one that inspires fear, according to her.

In my view it's like that:
If he would allowed the people of Sodom to live on... potential guests passing through would have been raped.
They would have complained about this before God "God why do you create a world in which people get raped like that?"

So he changed his creation a bit and took Sodom off the map.

It could be that God wanted to save him all the complaining from potential future rape victims.
That's my take on the matter at least.

What do you think it means: There is no new thing under the sun?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
In another thread a poster said, God might be seen as immoral.
There might not be any positive message from the Sodom story, according to her.
She doubts that this was fair trial and a jury. Only one that inspires fear, according to her.

In my view it's like that:
If he would allowed the people of Sodom to live on... potential guests passing through would have been raped.
They would have complained about this before God "God why do you create a world in which people get raped like that?"

So he changed his creation a bit and took Sodom off the map.

It could be that God wanted to save him all the complaining from potential future rape victims.
That's my take on the matter at least.
It is very difficult if not impossible to know or understand why God does as he do. So for a little human being like my self, i do not think i ever will be able to answer anything why God does what he does.
 

TheKyle

New Member
I suppose a personal take on an interpretation of what god meant is better than hearing directly from god on the matter?
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
It could be that God wanted to save him all the complaining from potential future rape victims.

And that's why He later gave sanction to the Hebrews to murder and rape their way through their fictional conquest of Canaan? The Old Testament god isn't violence shy in the least.

It's just a fable about divine wrath and why certain tribes of Israel are considered inferior by the author of the book all of it in an orignal retelling of a natural disaster that certainly marked the imagination of those who witnessed it due to its magnitude.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
It is very difficult if not impossible to know or understand why God does as he do. So for a little human being like my self, i do not think i ever will be able to answer anything why God does what he does.

This kind of thinking is dangerous, imo... There are many things that I didn't understand that I've dismissed in the past as "well, I'm just a tiny, insignificant, imperfect human being. Who am I to question god?"

This is a form of self-regulation that keeps one from digging too deeply and allows for one to become more easily deluded and manipulated... That's been my own personal experience, at least.

One should never assume they aren't competent enough to check if something is true or not... That's how people, not god, pull the wool over folks' eyes. It's not questioning god; it's questioning what you hear or read about god from those same fallible human beings as you.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I don't take the story of Sodom as literally truth. It might be a teaching story invented to scare people into certain behaviors. It might have been some actual event that turned into mythology as @epronovost suggested. It might have been that a disaster happened and those that died did so because their karma from past or current life needed to be balanced in that way.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
This kind of thinking is dangerous, imo... There are many things that I didn't understand that I've dismissed in the past as "well, I'm just a tiny, insignificant, imperfect human being. Who am I to question god?"

This is a form of self-regulation that keeps one from digging too deeply and allows for one to become more easily deluded and manipulated... That's been my own personal experience, at least.

One should never assume they aren't competent enough to check if something is true or not... That's how people, not god, pull the wool over folks' eyes. It's not questioning god; it's questioning what you hear or read about god from those same fallible human beings as you.
Looking back at my own comment, i should maybe have added (at this moment in time) meaning there is still reason for me to study and learn more so i might understand God in a more full way .
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
I hold that it happened taking it as literal truth and I opine you can't find immoralities of God in the Bible.
Can we stick to this "immorality" here in this thread and reserve the rest to be dicussed elsewhere please? I like a short thread.
3. Physically manifest before every traveller and yell, "Don't go that way! The people there will rape you!" That should do the trick.
Cain didn't change his behavour either. Why should the traveller?

4. Put everybody in the city into a magical sleep. This is another favourite of the fairies and would be a kinder option than outright killing the citizens.
He killed them. To me, this means transferring them to an afterlife. In this afterlife they sleep for a certain time I believe. So isn't this just that?
5. Put a forcefield around any travellers who enter the city so that the citizens can't touch them. You're preventing rape without interfering with free will and without resorting to killing.
+
2. Enchant the land around the city to turn travellers away. Fairy folklore has plenty of examples of magical forests and paths that steer people towards or away from something. God should have no problem topping that. If he's feeling kind, perhaps the enchanted land would direct thirsty travellers towards fresh water and hungry travellers towards a fruit orchard.
so God would lose territory every single time the behavior the Sodomites gets copied? Maybe he did not want to. It's his greation, he created the territory.


What do you think it means: There is no new thing under the sun?
no idea
I suppose a personal take on an interpretation of what god meant is better than hearing directly from god on the matter?
no idea

@ALL, thank you for replying!
Thomas
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
I hold that it happened taking it as literal truth and I opine you can't find immoralities of God in the Bible.
Can we stick to this "immorality" here in this thread and reserve the rest to be dicussed elsewhere please? I like a short thread.
Cain didn't change his behavour either. Why should the traveller?


He killed them. To me, this means transferring them to an afterlife. In this afterlife they sleep for a certain time I believe. So isn't this just that?

+

so God would lose territory every single time the behavior the Sodomites gets copied? Maybe he did not want to. It's his greation, he created the territory.



no idea

no idea

@ALL, thank you for replying!
Thomas

Even if you take it literally, it simply means that everything that has happened, happened before that time, and will happen again. I won't go into a lot of details ill leave it there.
Simply put: Everything replays over and over again, and what happened ensures it will happen again. The All knowing GOD, who sees what happens before it happens, designed HIS plan of Salvation perfectly. Therefore, GOD is not reactive; GOD cannot make mistakes; GOD cannot be taken unnawares. Anything text that shows otherwise is a parable, or a blasphemy.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
so God would lose territory every single time the behavior the Sodomites gets copied?

Only if he wants to lose territory. He's omnipotent, he could just increase the size of the earth if he wanted to. Or he could transfer the citizens into a duplicate universe and keep the original city. Lots and lots of options for an omnipotent being.

Maybe he did not want to. It's his greation, he created the territory.

This is exactly my point. An omnipotent God does whatever it wants and creates whatever it wants. The destruction of Sodom only happened* because God chose to kill rather than take another path.

In the OP, your argument is essentially that God acted morally because Sodom presented the possibility of harm to others. The question as I see it then is whether it would be more moral to prevent the harm posed by Sodom without killing its citizens.

I would argue that in this instance, God behaved immorally by choosing to kill despite there being non-lethal options available.



*I don't believe that God destroyed Sodom myself but I'm playing along for sake of the thread.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In another thread a poster said, God might be seen as immoral.
There might not be any positive message from the Sodom story, according to her.
She doubts that this was fair trial and a jury. Only one that inspires fear, according to her.

In my view it's like that:
If he would allowed the people of Sodom to live on... potential guests passing through would have been raped.
They would have complained about this before God "God why do you create a world in which people get raped like that?"

So he changed his creation a bit and took Sodom off the map.

It could be that God wanted to save him all the complaining from potential future rape victims.
That's my take on the matter at least.
There is a parallel story in Judges chapter 20. In verse 1 it says Israel assembles before the LORD in order to wipe out a similar evil in their own tribe Benjamin. Going back to the story in Genesis, Sodom has been allied with Abraham and with several other groups in Mamre, and the LORD destroys Sodom. Perhaps this is a similar event, and perhaps it is silly to require that the description of raining fire be a literal description. Fire is often used to represent judgment. Maybe this is what 'Rain down fire' means, and why turn Lot's wife into salt? That is such a random way to kill someone! It suggests an alternate meaning. Possibly what it means is she becomes barren or that Lot refuses to love her afterwards. The description is so strange. Pillar of salt?
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
A God with limitless powers cannot produce the suqre triangle now that the rules are set.
Equally there is nowhere around killing the Sodomites, I suppose... if, well if, God wants to uphold free will.
Let's see who the discussion evolves:
Only if he wants to lose territory. He's omnipotent, he could just increase the size of the earth if he wanted to.
in this case, he would still lose territory.
Or he could transfer the citizens into a duplicate universe and keep the original city. Lots and lots of options for an omnipotent being.
he did transfer them. To an afterlife.
The destruction of Sodom only happened* because God chose to kill rather than take another path.

In the OP, your argument is essentially that God acted morally because Sodom presented the possibility of harm to others. The question as I see it then is whether it would be more moral to prevent the harm posed by Sodom without killing its citizens.

I would argue that in this instance, God behaved immorally by choosing to kill despite there being non-lethal options available.
if you leave free will in place, there is no such thing, I suppose.
They want to rape.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Many years ago I saw a documentary on PBS about a couple of archeologists who had spent some years tracking down the source of that story, as it was a common story in several religions with variants among different religious sects. And it took some time but they did eventually find the actual site, and they excavated it to try and gain some idea of what had actually happened there.

The ACTUAL history of the site was this: sometime around 2500 years ago some desert nomads traveling through the desert on a regular trading route found a new water hole that they hadn't known about, before, and it happened to be near the crossing of two well-treveled trading routs through the desert, and a significant distance from any other similar sites. So it quickly became a popular place for travelers and traders to stop as they crossed the desert. And as naturally happens under such circumstances, a "boom-town" soon sprung up, with all the usual lawless debauchery that come with them.

As with most boom-towns, the structures were hastily built out of whatever materials were at hand, and in this case those materials were a very porous, lightweight volcanic rock glued together with mortar of mostly sand, and water. They were not sturdy structures. Also, as the town sprung up and grew very quickly, it soon began to over-tax the water supply causing the people living there to keep digging deeper and deeper into the ground to get at the water they needed, and as they drained the aquifer they unknowingly created a big underground cavity that eventually collapsed into a giant sink-hole.

Most of the dwellings collapsed into the sink-hole, and the few that were left had fallen down or were soon abandoned as the water source was now gone. And with it, so was the reason for the town. And then time quickly reclaimed them, leaving an 'unnatural' depression in the Earth filled with and surrounded by a few broken bits of structure and an inordinate amount of that scorched, lightweight, volcanic rock (that humans had gathered to build with and then left there.

But the nomads continued to pass by the site on their trading routes, for centuries after, and they would tell each other and their children the stories of the wild boom-town that once existed, there, and how it had fallen victim to it's own boundless lusts. And as with all mythological stories the circumstances would change, some, with the telling and retelling of the story to better convey the significance and meaning that the story-tellers gleaned from the events. And those nomads traded among several different civilizations around the desert's edge, which is how similar versions of the story managed to find their way into so many different religious traditions.

All that being said, the mythical story remains. And we can ask ourselves why it has stuck in the minds of so many people for so long a time. What does it represent to them? And I think it represents a number of apparent truths. Mostly that mankind is punished by and through that with which it sins. With the adjunct question being why do the innocents so often get punished along with the guilty? THIS story says that they didn't. It says that everyone in that town was 'guilty'. But were they? We each have to decide for ourselves, I think. Because the question still stands even if not in this particular instance.
 
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