God's motives to torture

[InChrist]

I reject the God of the Bible and "salvation" through Jesus Christ, and yet I hardly feel any self-inflicted torment. Rather, faith in the God I worship and am devoted to (as best as I can be) gives me comfort and joy, comfort and joy, oh tidings of... (stop it!).

So, how to explain this disparity?

The subject here is basically the torment one will experience in the afterlife or for eternity. In this physical life on earth it is pretty easy for people to reject God and distract themselves with all sorts of things, but in the eternal realm one will be left alone, with nothing to distract.

 

[InChrist]

If God is omnipresent, we ARE being forced into His presence because it's the only option.

No, not being forced, but to be in loving, eternal relationship with God is what I believe is indicated throughout the scriptures to be the reason we were created. So anything less or any other option is just never going to amount to much or bring true satisfaction and ultimately to miss this will be the most grievous loss.

 

[Jainarayan]

The subject here is basically the torment one will experience in the afterlife or for eternity. In this physical life on earth it is pretty easy for people to reject God and distract themselves with all sorts of things, but in the eternal realm one will be left alone, with nothing to distract.

You didn't address my point. How do you explain the disparity between the torment I'm allegedly going to suffer in the afterlife for rejecting him vs.my God promising that all I have to do is love him, be faithful to him, worship him, and think of him If I do those things, I can't help but live a good life, worthy of his grace and company.It's far more reassuring to hear "Always think of me, be devoted to me, worship me, and offer obeisance to me. Doing so, you will certainly come to me. This is my pledge to you, for you are very dear to me." than I only get one shot, and if I flub it my soul is toast. Literally. If I don't do those things, I'm not punished, it will just take longer to get to him. I get to try through as many lifetimes, worlds and universes as it takes. But eventually everyone goes to him. So who's telling the truth?

 

[InChrist]

You didn't address my point. How do you explain the disparity between the torment I'm allegedly going to suffer in the afterlife for rejecting him vs.my God promising that all I have to do is love him, be faithful to him, worship him, and think of him If I do those things, I can't help but live a good life, worthy of his grace and company.It's far more reassuring to hear "Always think of me, be devoted to me, worship me, and offer obeisance to me. Doing so, you will certainly come to me. This is my pledge to you, for you are very dear to me." than I only get one shot, and if I flub it my soul is toast. Literally. If I don't do those things, I'm not punished, it will just take longer to get to him. I get to try through as many lifetimes, worlds and universes as it takes. But eventually everyone goes to him. So who's telling the truth?

Sorry I didn't fully address your point. Before I respond further may I ask, who is your God?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No, not being forced, but to be in loving, eternal relationship with God is what I believe is indicated throughout the scriptures to be the reason we were created. So anything less or any other option is just never going to amount to much or bring true satisfaction and ultimately to miss this will be the most grievous loss.

But my point is that there is no way to be separated from an omnipresent being. That's not how "omnipresence" works.

 

[Shia Islam]

However, I find the Quran somewhat passive agressive when it says god has made the unbelivers blind so they cannot see. And some other rubbish. How he expect people to change if they can't do anything but wander alone in the darkness? It is obviously either a punishment or control.

when it comes to reading the Quran, if you would not refere to the Hadith to fully understand it, at least you read it fully.

Here are one great example of a quranic verse that shows how God is the most merciful and he forgive all of the sins for whoever repent to him:

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ أَسْرَفُوا عَلَىٰ أَنفُسِهِمْ لَا تَقْنَطُوا مِن رَّحْمَةِ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيعًا ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ

However, I must say that God is also a just God, and worshiping another God is the biggest sin. with the exception of the Children and those whose mental abilities are similar to the children and nobody have guided them, taking another God beside the true God is the greatest sin that can't be forgiven without repentance..

 

[Anthem]

but in the eternal realm one will be left alone, with nothing to distract.

How do you know? Or if you like, where does it say so?

 

[Tazarah]

How do you know? Or if you like, where does it say so?

Nowhere.

 

[Jainarayan]

Sorry I didn't fully address your point. Before I respond further may I ask, who is your God?

Vishnu, particularly in his Krishna avatar. He gave his discourse on life’s duties, God, and man’s relationship to God and life in the Bhagavad Gita.

Btw, it’s probably more correct to speak in terms of “views of God”, or “understandings of God” rather than thinking in terms of different Gods. There is only one God, no matter what he’s called.

The problems arise when people ascribe characteristics and attributes to God that God cannot possibly have... giving an untenable choice of either accepting him or rejecting him with a price and strings attached? Yeah, uh... no.

Whether a Hindu sees God as Vishnu, Shiva, Krishna, Kali, there is only unconditional, no-strings love from God. If you don’t accept God, that’s ok, you both go about your business. There is no separation, because there is no separation. God and the soul are always eternally one. Everything else is smoke and mirrors, i.e. illusion.

 

[Kenny]

Parent didn't make the fire nor the way fire works.

And God didn't make Hell for people... He made it as Satan's ultimate abode.

We can still arrest them for neglect or abuse.

A sort of hell.

Parents don't get out of that by saying the child chose to be that way as the buck still stops with the parent.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

 

[Kenny]

I didn't say force, but make sure.

Tell that to the thousands of burnt children, children with broken bones, children who got hurt playing with firecrackers etc etc etc.

 

[Kenny]

I don't know about you, but for me being cast into a furnace of fire would certainly be torture.

Matthew 13: 49-50
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Mark 9:43
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,​

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with a free "get out of jail" option. So, if one can get out "Scott free", why are people deciding to stay in there?


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Well ultimately it was god who constructed all the rules: "You do, or not do, X and you go to hell."

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Not quite... I believe the quote is "I place before you Life and Death, Blessing and Curse. Choose life so that you and your children will live."

Sounds like the ball is in our court in the choosing and He gives you the answer.

You can hit the ball back to God if you want, but it is still your choice no matter what reason you send Him the ball.

 

[Anthem]

Tell that to the thousands of burnt children, children with broken bones, children who got hurt playing with firecrackers etc etc etc.

Still....


....make sure.

 

[Skwim]

with a free "get out of jail" option. So, if one can get out "Scott free", why are people deciding to stay in there?

Not sure where the "there" is, but if it refers to this life then my guess is that they haven't been convinced hell actually exists.

Not quite... I believe the quote is "I place before you Life and Death, Blessing and Curse. Choose life so that you and your children will live."

And I'd say that not every one has been convinced that the choice is material.

Sounds like the ball is in our court in the choosing and He gives you the answer.

And I'm one of those who has yet to be convinced that the choosing has any truth behind it. And whose fault is that? Where is the convincing that is supposed to save me from hell? I await.

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[InChrist]

Vishnu, particularly in his Krishna avatar. He gave his discourse on life’s duties, God, and man’s relationship to God and life in the Bhagavad Gita.

Btw, it’s probably more correct to speak in terms of “views of God”, or “understandings of God” rather than thinking in terms of different Gods. There is only one God, no matter what he’s called.

The problems arise when people ascribe characteristics and attributes to God that God cannot possibly have... giving an untenable choice of either accepting him or rejecting him with a price and strings attached? Yeah, uh... no.

Whether a Hindu sees God as Vishnu, Shiva, Krishna, Kali, there is only unconditional, no-strings love from God. If you don’t accept God, that’s ok, you both go about your business. There is no separation, because there is no separation. God and the soul are always eternally one. Everything else is smoke and mirrors, i.e. illusion.

Well, I suppose the first question would be, as you alluded to in your earlier post, who's telling the truth or which God is real?

In this case, Krishna or Jesus? Your view of God/Krishna is Hinduism which is basically pantheistic and includes the belief, as you stated, that there is no separation between God and the soul , all else is illusion. But the biblical perspective and my view is that God is transcendent—He is above all that He created and I think life in this world demonstrates that reality. So which is it? If one or the other is true it does matter and would make a difference in one's choices and eternal destiny.

While you may see Krishna as all loving, I see the opposite. I see the relentless requirement and burden of endless effort and work. I cannot understand how anyone can see lifetime after lifetime as a good thing. Isn't one in this world, with all the pain and suffering enough? The devotion required by Krishna is so hopeless compared to the merciful, loving compassion freely offered by the God revealed in the Bible who ...so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:16) and ...So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed (John 8:36)

Jesus spoke about the torment of being separated from God for eternity because of our sin, but I see this as an expression of His love and desire to see us set free now to enter into the love of God and be in God's presence forever. Anything else, including endless lives of working one's way toward oneness with Krishna, is depressing bondage from my perspective.

I realize you have your views and I respect that, but just sharing how I see it.

 

[Jainarayan]

Well, I suppose the first question would be, as you alluded to in your earlier post, who's telling the truth or which God is real?

There is only one God. You're still making up different Gods. It's just a matter of how we view it. Did you read nothing I wrote?

In this case, Krishna or Jesus? Your view of God/Krishna is Hinduism which is basically pantheistic and includes the belief, as you stated, that there is no separation between God and the soul , all else is illusion. But the biblical perspective and my view is that God is transcendent—He is above all that He created and I think life in this world demonstrates that reality. So which is it? If one or the other is true it does matter and would make a difference in one's choices and eternal destiny.

Hinduism is pantheistic and panentheistic, in which God is transcendent. Why is the Bible any more correct than the Bhagavad Gita? What happens if you don't follow the Bible or accept its teachings? You fall away from God. What happens if you don't follow the Bhagavad Gita or accept its teachings? Nothing bad, that's for sure. Millions of Hindus have never even read it, because it's a Vaishnava (followers of Vishnu) text. Yet they follow the dharma ('duty', 'virtue', 'morality', 'religion' and it refers to the power which upholds the universe and society. Hindus generally believe that dharma was revealed in the Vedas although a more common word there for 'universal law' or 'righteousness') , which is exactly what the BG spells out. Therefore, without knowing it, they follow God. In whatever way people surrender unto me, I reciprocate with them accordingly. Everyone follows my path, knowingly or unknowingly, O son of Pritha. BG 4.11

All Vaishnava schools are panentheistic and perceive the Advaita [non-dual] concept of identification of Atman [individual soul] with the impersonal Brahman as an intermediate step of self-realization, but not Mukti, or final liberation of complete God-realization through Bhakti Yoga.[citation needed] Gaudiya Vaishnavism, a form of Achintya Bheda Abheda philosophy, also concludes that Brahman is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. According to them, Brahman is Lord Vishnu/Krishna; the universe and all other manifestations of the Supreme are extensions of Him.

Brahman - Wikipedia The [boldl] is mine.

Pantheism, panentheism, transcendence:

The Blessed Lord said: “I am seated in the heart of all living entities… I am the beginning, middle, and end of all beings. ... of the senses I am the mind, and in living beings I am the living force ... of bodies of water I am the ocean ... of purifiers I am the wind; of fishes I am the shark ... of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle ... I am also inexhaustible time ... I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be ... I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong ... I am the generating seed of all existences … there is no being-moving or unmoving- that can exist without Me ... know that all beautiful, glorious and mighty creations spring from but a spark of My splendor ... with a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.” Bhagavad Gita 10.20-42

While you may see Krishna as all loving, I see the opposite. I see the relentless requirement and burden of endless effort and work. I cannot understand how anyone can see lifetime after lifetime as a good thing. Isn't one in this world, with all the pain and suffering enough? The devotion required by Krishna is so hopeless compared to the merciful, loving compassion freely offered by the God revealed in the Bible who ...so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:16) and ...So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed (John 8:36)

...Jesus spoke about the torment of being separated from God for eternity because of our sin, but I see this as an expression of His love and desire to see us set free now to enter into the love of God and be in God's presence forever. Anything else, including endless lives of working one's way toward oneness with Krishna, is depressing bondage from my perspective.

What is hopeless? What is good about getting only one shot at life and "redemption", with the possibility of royally flubbing it and going to hell? What's loving about "the torment of being separated from God for eternity because of our sin"? Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? I highly recommend it.

And whoever, at the time of death, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt. 8.5

Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. 8.6

Therefore, Arjuna, you should always think of Me in the form of Krishna and at the same time carry out your prescribed duty of fighting. With your activities dedicated to Me and your mind and intelligence fixed on Me, you will attain Me without doubt. 8.7

He who meditates on the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his mind constantly engaged in remembering Me, undeviated from the path, he, O Arjuna, is sure to reach Me. 8.8

Even if the vilest sinners worship Me with exclusive devotion, they are to be considered righteous, for they have made the proper resolve. 9.30

Commentary:

Devotion to the Supreme Lord is so potent that it can reform even the vilest sinner. In the scriptures, the classical examples of this are Ajamil and Valmiki, whose stories are commonly sung in all Indian languages. Valmiki’s accumulated sins were so overbearing that he was unable even to enunciate “Ra..ma,” the two syllables in Lord Ram’s name. His sins were preventing him from taking the divine Name. So, his Guru thought of a way of engaging him in devotion by making him chant the reverse, “Ma Ra,” with the intention that repetition of “Mara Mara Mara Mara…” will automatically create the sound of “Rama Rama Rama…” As a result, even such a sinful soul as Valmiki was reformed by the process of ananya bhakti (exclusive devotion) and transformed into a legendary saint.

Quickly they become virtuous, and attain lasting peace. O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that no devotee of Mine is ever lost. 9.31

All those who take refuge in Me, whatever their birth, race, sex, or caste, even those whom society scorns, will attain the supreme destination.9.32

So there you have it. This isn't anything other than to counter your points. If you believe it and see things from a new perspective, great. If not, great. The point is to show you that as a Hindu I have nothing to fear from God, or for my future life/lives. Whatever happens to me is within my control per the laws of karma. God does not dispense judgement, reward, punishment.

 

[Milton Platt]

The Bible and the Koran essentially says that people will be tortured in the next life if they are unbelievers or they do or fail to do x y and z.

What do you think God's motives are for torturing people in the next life, if you believe that happens?

Scripture says there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the rich man in Hades was being burned by flames.

If God is love, I could see him putting people out of their misery like you would a sick dog. I cannot fathom why a God who is love would think torture is a good thing, especially for those who didn't know any better.

I fail to be able to reconcile “god is love” with supposedly having your own son turtured to death. Not to mention directly endorsing slavery and genocide.

 

[Tazarah]

Fact of the matter is:

GOD is GOD and can do anything that he wants or chooses. Who are we to question him? You should all be thankful that he has even GIVEN you life, on his earth, in his universe, in HIS existence.

People like the ones in this thread who are questioning God and his authority are the EXACT reason why the world is in the condition that it is in today.

“Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?” [Romans 9:19-20]

 

[Kenny]

Still....


....make sure.

Jesus....

... made sure.

Ball is in our courts.

 

[Kenny]

Not sure where the "there" is, but if it refers to this life then my guess is that they haven't been convinced hell actually exists.
And I'd say that not every one has been convinced that the choice is material.
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Yes... I suppose many aren't convinced. Many law-breakers don't believe they will get caught and some people still believe the earth is flat.

But certainly it is worth thinking about. "What if?" is a good question to ask oneself.

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And I'm one of those who has yet to be convinced that the choosing has any truth behind it. And whose fault is that? Where is the convincing that is supposed to save me from hell? I await.

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Have you sinned?