God's opposition to homosexual behavior. Why?

[shmogie]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Roman law had no distinction between gay or straight. Roman law explained it much different for its society. I think Christians were against Roman law, which included sexual perversion as legal for its citizens, too. It was okay for abortion, infanticide and beating one's children. So, what is sexual perversion?

Here's one list .

Top 10 Reasons Ancient Rome Was a Pervert’s Paradise - Toptenz.net

Interesting list. Liberal common culture is half way to fulfilling it already. Many propose that pedophelia is a sexual orientation, thus not wrong at all. Another checked off on the list.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Interesting list. Liberal common culture is half way to fulfilling it already. Many propose that pedophelia is a sexual orientation, thus not wrong at all. Another checked off on the list.

Pederasty? Not the same as true paedophilia though.

 

[james bond]

Interesting list. Liberal common culture is half way to fulfilling it already. Many propose that pedophelia is a sexual orientation, thus not wrong at all. Another checked off on the list.

Probably not a complete list of perversions. Heh. We haven't seen what modern technology will add.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Huh? You want to talk about fundie insecurities while I continue to help broken people, broken souls?

1. I've witnessed to thousands.
2. When homosexuality comes up, each time, people talk to me when asked about abuse as a child and/or a broken relationship with a same sex parent.

I'm searching online this week for the comments from a secular psychologist who counseled 300 gay men and recorded that 298 of them had either/or.

Let me know when you have more than hearsay and agenda based groundless accusations and false good intentions.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Also, why would any God be causing (apparently) such things as intersex individuals or situations like this:

In This Remote Village, Some Boys Don't Grow a Penis Until They're 12

Purpose?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Interesting list. Liberal common culture is half way to fulfilling it already. Many propose that pedophelia is a sexual orientation, thus not wrong at all. Another checked off on the list.

This is a scare quote. What APA has said is that pedophilia disorder is a mental condition, nothing about rightness or wrongness. And I challenge you to find 'many liberals' who think child assault isn't wrong, and shouldn't be stopped.
It isn't liberal America that has the alarming history of protecting child abusers. It's Christian churches, large and small, both Catholic and Protestant.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

My "polls" come from witnessing to thousands of people. Gays and I talk frankly on the issues. Also, you can search online and in papers to find non-Christian psychologists who concur--most homosexuals were either abused as children or have a broken relationship with a same sex parent.

I'm not "trotting out" homophobic behaviors when I have frank, intimate talks with gays. I'm rather insisting the scriptures are correct and homosexuals are hurting people. Let's help hurting people instead of attacking the people trying to help them!

My "polls" come from speaking to thousands of people. Christians and I speak frankly on the issues. Also you can search online for Christian psychologists who concur, most Christians were either abused as children or have a broken relationship with a same sex parent.

I'm not "trotting out" bigotry when I have frank, intimate talks with Christians. I'm rather insisting that the scripture is incorrect and Christians are hurting people. Let's help hurting people instead of attacking people trying to help them.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There's no need to be flippant about people who have been hurt and are now in pain.

I'm not being flippant about that. As I said, I am one of those people.

What I was being flippant about was your silly claim.

I NEVER said ALL people abused as children become X. You AGAIN and AGAIN refuse to read my posts while applying comprehension. What I said was "most gays were abused as children and/or had a broken relationship with a same sex parent".

So you weren't trying to imply that experiencing abuse by a person of the same sex and/or a broken relationship with a same sex parent results in homosexuality? So why bring it up at all then?

YOU implied and added "same sex" to "abused" because it was natural and logical to do so. Your tirade underscores the truth of what I wrote, thanks!

You said, “Specifically, while many people are hurting,most every gay person I've known or encountered witnessing was molested while young and/or had a broken relationship with a same sex parent.”

You were clearly talking about children having issues with members of the same sex, were you not? Please tell me then, what should we have taken away from your statement? Why did you make a point to point out that you think most gay people were abused as children and/or had a broken relationship with a same sex parent?

Tirade? I wrote a two-sentence question.

 

[Aldrnari]

This is a scare quote. What APA has said is that pedophilia disorder is a mental condition, nothing about rightness or wrongness. And I challenge you to find 'many liberals' who think child assault isn't wrong, and shouldn't be stopped.
It isn't liberal America that has the alarming history of protecting child abusers. It's Christian churches, large and small, both Catholic and Protestant.

This actually happened at an evangelical church I was going to as a child. The youth group leader was molesting some of the girls, but he never faced jail time. It was never proven (and none of the girls admitted until after the statute of limitations), but many of the congregation suspected the pastor and elders knew. It was one of the main things that tore that church apart.

 

[pearl]

I'm tired of these comments. Are you a gay exception to my rule or are you guessing?

I believe your argument is based solely on a personal prejudice against homosexuals.
Our sexuality is at the core of who we are, how we perceive and relate to others. I am a wife, mother, grandmother and great grandmother. Yet I do not hold such silly and destructive notions that a homosexual can be 'fixed'! I am a Catholic and look for guidance in such matters to the Church first, which understands homosexuality not as a choice but a given. All in all, it is essential to recall one basic truth. God loves every person as a unique individual. Sexual identity helps to define the unique persons we are, and one component of our sexual identity is sexual orientation. Thus, our total personhood is more encompassing than sexual orientation. Human beings see the appearance, but the Lord looks into the heart.
All homosexual persons have a right to be welcomed into the community, to hear the word of God, and to receive pastoral care.

There is no arguing that when one faces for the first time a homosexual tendency it is not without fear and struggle with ones own self. Once that is accepted and overcome at the very least they ought to be supported. While prior abuse may influence attitudes and behaviors I don't believe it altars ones true sexuality.

Some people simply refuse to acknowledge the genuine love shared between homosexual couples. The Church recognizes this but the stumbling block for a Catholic homosexual in a relationship is that they are to live without sex. The following is the story of one such couple.

"I came to chastity because I loved my partner so much. I’m a veteran of a 17-year-long committed relationship with another man. It’s a deep friendship, and it has been since almost the moment we met. It was sexually active for the first seven years, and then—after I became a Christian, after I began reflecting on what Scripture and tradition had taught for 2,000 years—I went to my partner and said, "I love you. Can we please stop having sex?"

http://bcm.bc.edu/issues/summer_2003/ft_catholic.html

 

[shmogie]

This is a scare quote. What APA has said is that pedophilia disorder is a mental condition, nothing about rightness or wrongness. And I challenge you to find 'many liberals' who think child assault isn't wrong, and shouldn't be stopped.
It isn't liberal America that has the alarming history of protecting child abusers. It's Christian churches, large and small, both Catholic and Protestant.

What APA says is irrelevant to the point. I personally saw two University PhD's in psychology on video state that their conclusion was that pedophelia was a "sexual orientation" whatever that means, today, as opposed to yesterday. They also were flaming feminists who stated there was no longer any need for men within humanity. I will see if I can find their names, school, and perhaps the video itself for you. Actually, with dullards like this lecturing in university;'s you really should be scared.

I know you were trying to make a point about churches,I am just am not sure what it is. Are you proclaiming that various institutions in society as well as individuals do not protect child abusers ?

Are you proclaiming that churches aren't part of society ?

Are you proclaiming that Christian standards as relates to you should be judged by how alleged Christians keep them ?

Are you proclaiming that I, as part of the Church protects child abusers ?
Are you proclaiming that members of Churches, because of the standards they hold, in spite of their free admissions they fail at keeping those standards, are child abusers ?

You are part of society where child abuse is rampant, does that make you a child abuser ?

What exactly are you trying to say by your comments ? I find them nebulous.

 

[SomeRandom]

My "polls" come from witnessing to thousands of people. Gays and I talk frankly on the issues. Also, you can search online and in papers to find non-Christian psychologists who concur--most homosexuals were either abused as children or have a broken relationship with a same sex parent.

I'm not "trotting out" homophobic behaviors when I have frank, intimate talks with gays. I'm rather insisting the scriptures are correct and homosexuals are hurting people. Let's help hurting people instead of attacking the people trying to help them!

No I will absolutely "attack" people who hurt my gay brethren for no other reason than a Book. It's people like you who are the reason why I've had to refer my gay friends to actual legitimate professionals for help. Because your lot tells them constantly they're broken and they start believing it eventually. I have seen the consequences of your so called "help" and it causes far more anguish than anything a gay person existing can cause. Which actually doesn't make sense. Being gay is as destructive as being straight. The hell are you even on about with that hurting people nonsense? Your lot hurts people on the daily, hypocrite.

So you'll excuse me if I need more than flimsy fallacious ancetodal evidence to convince me of this statistic. You wanna go that route? I know people from my own family (blood and otherwise) as well as my own circle of friends and their friends and theirs etc even which pretty much proves your findings wrong.

There are entire communities of Gay Christians, who I can also search for and find easily online, who come from pretty stable homes. Explain their existence to me. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Also the vast majority of actual mental health professionals from Psycharitrists to councillors have all come out staunchly against your supposed "findings." Have done for the past 30 years even.
Everyone from the APA to social workers say pretty much the same thing. There is nothing wrong with homosexuality, they are born that way and the real threat to their well being is stigma, mostly from religous sentiments.
And I'd readily listen to actual qualified professionals in the field as opposed to hearsay from an obviously prejudiced layman source with confirmation bias and claims of "helping people."

And you did trot out a supposed justification for homophobic behaviour. By hiding behind abused children. If there existed a puking emoji on here this is where I'd put it.

You know how most modern civilised people view racists today?
Yeah that's how my generation (mostly) views homophobes.

 

[shmogie]

No I will absolutely "attack" people who hurt my gay brethren for no other reason than a Book. It's people like you who are the reason why I've had to refer my gay friends to actual legitimate professionals for help. Because your lot tells them constantly they're broken and they start believing it eventually. I have seen the consequences of your so called "help" and it causes far more anguish than anything a gay person existing can cause. Which actually doesn't make sense. Being gay is as destructive as being straight. The hell are you even on about with that hurting people nonsense? Your lot hurts people on the daily, hypocrite.

So you'll excuse me if I need more than flimsy fallacious ancetodal evidence to convince me of this statistic. You wanna go that route? I know people from my own family (blood and otherwise) as well as my own circle of friends and their friends and theirs etc even which pretty much proves your findings wrong.

There are entire communities of Gay Christians, who I can also search for and find easily online, who come from pretty stable homes. Explain their existence to me. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Also the vast majority of actually mental health professionals from Psycharitrists to councillors have all come out staunchly against your supposed "findings." Have done for the past 30 years even.
Everyone from the APA to social workers say pretty much the same thing. There is nothing wrong with homosexuality, they are born that way and the real threat to their well being is stigma, mostly from religous sentiments.
And I'd readily listen to actual qualified professionals in the field as opposed to hearsay from an obviously prejudiced layman source with confirmation bias and claims of "helping people."

And you did trot out a supposed justification for homophobic behaviour. By hiding behind abused children. If there existed a puking emoji on here this is where I'd put it.

You know how most modern civilised people view racists today?
Yeah that's how my generation (mostly) views homophobes.

Gads what vitriol directed in every direction.

Let me take two of your 'er ah points. "They are born that way" A very powerful statement, to which I can only say prove it. You, of course aren't speaking with the reality of science to prove your statement. You can't. You are speaking with the new reality methodology of your generation. The social reality of we know it';s so, we tell each other it is so it is, so if you disagree you are.a.............................. and unworthy of being heard, If someone doesn't accept the unsupported truth of your self validating social mob and it's neo fascist tactics, your generation crumbles into it's safe zones to color and whine about all the macro and micro aggressions that brought it to tears.

My generation literally fought for free speech and welcomed it from all sides, you weak slackers want to stifle it because it hurts your feelings.

I say again PROVE homosexuals are "born that way".

You say that you know homsexual Christians. Well, according to the Christian Scriptures that a Christian says he believes to be a Christian, your statement might be an oxymoron. No matter God judges, and only he knows, for sure.

 

[Skwim]

If you don't believe that there will be a judgment day, then you may believe that God doesn't care.

As an agnostic, I don't believe anything you say about your god. All my remarks about god are in the context of Christian beliefs.

.

 

[SomeRandom]

Gads what vitriol directed in every direction.

What vitriol might that be? I responded by bringing up the consequences of bullying tactics employed by seemingly well intentioned, ahem, Christians and voiced my distaste for such actions and suddenly it's vitriolic, is it? Well you guys can certainly dish it out to the gay community but as soon as someone tries to stand up for them, it's "attacking" and "vitriolic." Do unto others, indeed.

But you know in the interests of being fair, I will try my best to be emotionally neutral. Getting emotional is a foible of mine, I will try to tone it down here.

Let me take two of your 'er ah points. "They are born that way" A very powerful statement, to which I can only say prove it. You, of course aren't speaking with the reality of science to prove your statement. You can't. You are speaking with the new reality methodology of your generation. The social reality of we know it';s so, we tell each other it is so it is, so if you disagree you are.a.............................. and unworthy of being heard, If someone doesn't accept the unsupported truth of your self validating social mob and it's neo fascist tactics, your generation crumbles into it's safe zones to color and whine about all the macro and micro aggressions that brought it to tears.

Prove to me you were born straight. Going gay is not like buying a ladder. The only people who could be reasonably expected to "turn gay" are bisexuals. But if gay is a choice, it stands to reason so is being straight. That would be logical.
But you're right, I was slightly hyperbolic and perhaps could have chosen a better phrase. The research is still ongoing, but the majority consensus of the scientific community is a combination of genetic, hormonal and social factors determine sexual orientation. Multiple hypothesis' exist as to the cause of homosexuality specifically.

Now, me personally, I don't really care if someone is born that way or not. You lot do, because if it's a choice, which I doubt (I mean why would anyone choose to be ostracized and bullied by society? But whatever) then you guys don't have to feel bad about bullying gay people. After all they chose that, amirite?
Of course that is speculation on my part. So prove me wrong.

Now there are many studies about the causes of homosexuality going on. Some suggest there is a link between genes and sexual orientation
Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation | Psychological Medicine | Cambridge Core
“A Linkage Between DNA Markers on the X Chromosome and Male Sexual Orientation” (1993), by Dean H. Hamer and Charles A. Thomas. | The Embryo Project Encyclopedia
http://chaladze.com/files/publications/Chaladze2016ASB.pdf

But even though the "proof" as you put it is less than concrete, I have yet to see a qualified professional agree even slightly with your camp. If you wanna go that route.

And don't give me that crap about micro or macro aggression or tumblrisms or whatever. I am no ally to the Social Justice Movement. Nor am I an ally to the Anti side. Actually I was very much into the Anti SJW side when "Gamergate" kicked off. But after all the drama, and also growing up a little bit, now I say Y'all deserve each other. I stepped away from that toxicity a while ago now. Though, admittedly, sometimes it's good popcorn fodder to watch both sides fight each other.
And the trolls like Mister Metekour for example are also a good laugh when he mocks some sensationalized story about some werido.
But I kind of out grew that scene.

My generation literally fought for free speech and welcomed it from all sides, you weak slackers want to stifle it because it hurts your feelings.

Yeah yeah yeah, greatest generation. Anti semitism, lynch mobs, the KKK, unnecessary wars, book burnings, mass movements to ban games or movies or whatever sensationalist media invoked the anger of Helen Lovejoys at the time (hell us gamers are still trying to defend the right of free speech game devs have, from your supposed "fight for free speech, tolerate all sides" generation who want that destroyed), the blazed Hippies, the biker gangs who killed each other while drunk, yeah you guys are veritable role models. You guys can complain about us millennials all you like, yours was the generation who raised us. We inherited your skeletons, so don't put all the blame on us.

I say again PROVE homosexuals are "born that way".

PROVE you were born straight. If being gay is a choice, logically being straight would also be a choice. As choosing to be gay would obviously choose between being straight and being gay. So go ahead, do unto others and prove you were born heterosexual. What's good for the goose, right?

You say that you know homsexual Christians. Well, according to the Christian Scriptures that a Christian says he believes to be a Christian, your statement might be an oxymoron. No matter God judges, and only he knows, for sure.

With the amount of time you guys spend devouring your own kind, claiming that X is not a "Real Copyrighted Christian" I'm honestly surprised you have enough energy left to even worship.
Christian and gay | Living Out resources, stories and questions
Welcome to Q Christian Fellowship!
Christianity and homosexuality - Wikipedia
Opening the Religious Closet: The Lives of Gay Christians and Muslims in the Netherlands by Sierra Fleenor, Bertine Moenaff | Humanity in Action
Lesbian and Gay Christians

But yeah those few examples out of a potential thousand communities of gay Christians worldwide, which I found in like 3 seconds are all oxymorons.
Here, a testimonial.
Letter from a Gay Christian
Christ, if you guys cared as much about condemning Homosexuality as much as feeding the homeless, we'd end world hunger in a day. (That was a joke by the way. Don't get triggered.)

 

[ADigitalArtist]

What APA says is irrelevant to the point. I personally saw two University PhD's in psychology on video

So you're ignoring what the bulk of professionals say to laser focus on whatever extreme cases you can find and then call it prolific, were i even to believe your caricature in the first place. Gotcha.

What exactly are you trying to say by your comments ? I find them nebulous.

That saying 'liberal culture' endorses child assault would be even less sensible than saying Christian culture does.

 

[shmogie]

So you're ignoring what the bulk of professionals say to laser focus on whatever extreme cases you can find and then call it prolific, were i even to believe your caricature in the first place. Gotcha.


That saying 'liberal culture' endorses child assault would be even less sensible than saying Christian culture does.

I am stating what I saw, that I stated what I saw. What they said makes my point that SOME think that way. I never said anything about what the bulk of professionals say. If you think the two (2) that I mentioned in my mind or in anyone else´s mind represents the bulk of professionals, or that I said it did, you need to examine yourself for paranoia. I find it unconscionable that you could not say anything untoward about the statements of your fellow professionals. Your absence of words says much.

As to my condemnation of liberal culture, I stand by it. What is child abuse ? Is, crumbling, poverty stricken, wracked with gangs inner citíes in which liberal mayors have been in power for 50 years, and spent hundreds of billions to correct the problems, and haven,t, child abuse ? Pick any city over 500,000 in population under liberal administration for at least 10 years and find a different situation, extremely few. Politics reflect the culture of the constituency, gotçha

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I am stating what I saw, that I stated what I saw. What they said makes my point that SOME think that way. I never said anything about what the bulk of professionals say. If you think the two (2) that I mentioned in my mind or in anyone else´s mind represents the bulk of professionals, or that I said it did, you need to examine yourself for paranoia. I find it unconscionable that you could not say anything untoward about the statements of your fellow professionals. Your absence of words says much.

As to my condemnation of liberal culture, I stand by it. What is child abuse ? Is, crumbling, poverty stricken, wracked with gangs inner citíes in which liberal mayors have been in power for 50 years, and spent hundreds of billions to correct the problems, and haven,t, child abuse ? Pick any city over 500,000 in population under liberal administration for at least 10 years and find a different situation, extremely few. Politics reflect the culture of the constituency, gotçha

My lack of words speaks to my posting from a phone and general unwillingness to pad (or sugarcoat) my responses.
You let me know when you have more than cartoon characters 'you saw.' Because I've got a Twitter full of extremes we could point to all day.

Also the vast majority of poverty in the US is the bible belt with Christian Republican leadership so I guess I'll take a hard no on your red herring reductive argument, as you would in my place.

Tell me again how liberals say child molestation is perfectly okay?

 

[shmogie]

What vitriol might that be? I responded by bringing up the consequences of bullying tactics employed by seemingly well intentioned, ahem, Christians and voiced my distaste for such actions and suddenly it's vitriolic, is it? Well you guys can certainly dish it out to the gay community but as soon as someone tries to stand up for them, it's "attacking" and "vitriolic." Do unto others, indeed.

But you know in the interests of being fair, I will try my best to be emotionally neutral. Getting emotional is a foible of mine, I will try to tone it down here.


Prove to me you were born straight. Going gay is not like buying a ladder. The only people who could be reasonably expected to "turn gay" are bisexuals. But if gay is a choice, it stands to reason so is being straight. That would be logical.
But you're right, I was slightly hyperbolic and perhaps could have chosen a better phrase. The research is still ongoing, but the majority consensus of the scientific community is a combination of genetic, hormonal and social factors determine sexual orientation. Multiple hypothesis' exist as to the cause of homosexuality specifically.

Now, me personally, I don't really care if someone is born that way or not. You lot do, because if it's a choice, which I doubt (I mean why would anyone choose to be ostracized and bullied by society? But whatever) then you guys don't have to feel bad about bullying gay people. After all they chose that, amirite?
Of course that is speculation on my part. So prove me wrong.

Now there are many studies about the causes of homosexuality going on. Some suggest there is a link between genes and sexual orientation
Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation | Psychological Medicine | Cambridge Core
“A Linkage Between DNA Markers on the X Chromosome and Male Sexual Orientation” (1993), by Dean H. Hamer and Charles A. Thomas. | The Embryo Project Encyclopedia
http://chaladze.com/files/publications/Chaladze2016ASB.pdf

But even though the "proof" as you put it is less than concrete, I have yet to see a qualified professional agree even slightly with your camp. If you wanna go that route.

And don't give me that crap about micro or macro aggression or tumblrisms or whatever. I am no ally to the Social Justice Movement. Nor am I an ally to the Anti side. Actually I was very much into the Anti SJW side when "Gamergate" kicked off. But after all the drama, and also growing up a little bit, now I say Y'all deserve each other. I stepped away from that toxicity a while ago now. Though, admittedly, sometimes it's good popcorn fodder to watch both sides fight each other.
And the trolls like Mister Metekour for example are also a good laugh when he mocks some sensationalized story about some werido.
But I kind of out grew that scene.


Yeah yeah yeah, greatest generation. Anti semitism, lynch mobs, the KKK, unnecessary wars, book burnings, mass movements to ban games or movies or whatever sensationalist media invoked the anger of Helen Lovejoys at the time (hell us gamers are still trying to defend the right of free speech game devs have, from your supposed "fight for free speech, tolerate all sides" generation who want that destroyed), the blazed Hippies, the biker gangs who killed each other while drunk, yeah you guys are veritable role models. You guys can complain about us millennials all you like, yours was the generation who raised us. We inherited your skeletons, so don't put all the blame on us.


PROVE you were born straight. If being gay is a choice, logically being straight would also be a choice. As choosing to be gay would obviously choose between being straight and being gay. So go ahead, do unto others and prove you were born heterosexual. What's good for the goose, right?


With the amount of time you guys spend devouring your own kind, claiming that X is not a "Real Copyrighted Christian" I'm honestly surprised you have enough energy left to even worship.
Christian and gay | Living Out resources, stories and questions
Welcome to Q Christian Fellowship!
Christianity and homosexuality - Wikipedia
Opening the Religious Closet: The Lives of Gay Christians and Muslims in the Netherlands by Sierra Fleenor, Bertine Moenaff | Humanity in Action
Lesbian and Gay Christians

But yeah those few examples out of a potential thousand communities of gay Christians worldwide, which I found in like 3 seconds are all oxymorons.
Here, a testimonial.
Letter from a Gay Christian
Christ, if you guys cared as much about condemning Homosexuality as much as feeding the homeless, we'd end world hunger in a day. (That was a joke by the way. Don't get triggered.)

You got the wrong generation mate. I didn´t realize I was speaking to a Brit, your national social history is different to ours. I Was speaking of the Berkeley free speech movement of the 60ś. I was also speaking of the crybaby loser college students in the USA.

I didn´t read the OPś post, I wasn´t interested, he didn´t represent my Christian views, and you are unjust in lumping me in with ¨ YOU guyś´´ you don´t know me, you don´t know my actions you don´t know how I relate to anyone.

I only responded because as I was passing by I caught your emphatic statement about being ¨ born that way ¨. There is very little evidence of this, lots of theoryś. I once had a long conversation with a celibate Christian homosexual on the very question of ¨ why would I choose to be this way ¨. I appreciate your point

As you guys say, cheers. As we say, have a nice day

 

[shmogie]

My lack of words speaks to my posting from a phone and general unwillingness to pad (or sugarcoat) my responses.
You let me know when you have more than cartoon characters 'you saw.' Because I've got a Twitter full of extremes we could point to all day.

Also the vast majority of poverty in the US is the bible belt with Christian Republican leadership so I guess I'll take a hard no on your red herring reductive argument, as you would in my place.

Tell me again how liberals say child molestation is perfectly okay?

You miss the point, again. I was born poor, and never considered myself a victim of Child abuse. Poverty isn´t de facto child abuse, far from it. I mentioned a number of issues other than poverty that I doubt you would in the Bible belt. Liberals say many things that are harmful or potentially harmful are OK. Have you kept abreast of many of the ideas coming out of liberal multicultural Europe regarding sex with children ( pedophelia is a judgemental potentially hurtful term ) ? Do so. Then get back to me