Gospels’ Errors: There is no son of God or Trinity.

[DavidFirth]

dismissed as bull **** then.

You probably dismissed it 20 years ago.

 

[Grandliseur]

There so many "holy" men one doesn't know what to do. The big contradiction is God's chosen people (Judaism) and the "newer" religion (Christianity), it really makes one's head spin, ha. ha.

The subject is actually quite simple. God has a chosen people by covenant, by contract. Up to Jesus it was the nation of Israel; once the Mosaic Covenant, law, was replaced by the New Covenant, law of faith, Israel was no longer God's people. The mantle was turned over to the New Covenant people, Spiritual Israel, that anyone, Jew or Gentile could become a member of by baptism.

Due to the number of different denominations this subject is not agreed upon among all of these denoms; nonetheless, the Bible is very clear on the subject.

 

[Mohsen]

It is truly amazing that every one of the authors of the NT died rather than recant their witness or their teaching. Some of them died horribly rather than recant. Peter was crucified upside down.

You prove to me even one of them was lying or politely just shut up.

I proved to you how you don't know bible history and you ran away. isn't it you who should be keeping his mouth shut and his ears open? your hubris is humiliating you!

 

[Repox]

The subject is actually quite simple. God has a chosen people by covenant, by contract. Up to Jesus it was the nation of Israel; once the Mosaic Covenant, law, was replaced by the New Covenant, law of faith, Israel was no longer God's people. The mantle was turned over to the New Covenant people, Spiritual Israel, that anyone, Jew or Gentile could become a member of by baptism.

Due to the number of different denominations this subject is not agreed upon among all of these denoms; nonetheless, the Bible is very clear on the subject.

The Bible is not clear on the subject. There is no mention of new chosen people in the OT, and because of significant errors, we cannot trust the NT. There is another possibility not being considered. God was Jesus, he came into the world to give testimony to HIs chosen people, His message was corrupted and converted into new meanings for a new religion. God's first religion was Judaism, He didn't replace it. Thus, we have Israel and God's protection of his chosen people. Until the end of time, Israel will not be destroyed, it is God's promise. Humans have proven to be very inventive, they can even invent new religions. God, however, is not in the business of contradicting Himself. Judaism is God's religion.

“All the Land that you see I will give you and your offspring forever.” (Genesis 13:15)

 

[Repox]

As an example of early gospel interpretations about Jesus being different than the NT gospels, here is a reference about the “divine Jesus.” It provides some credibility to my theory of Jesus being God.

Here is a statement by Peter Own Jones, a researcher of early gospels.

These gospels were some of the many alternative books about Jesus that weren't included in the Christian Bible. They had been side-lined by the early church as it worked out what became the official version of Christianity.

The Jesus in these texts was radically different from the one in the accepted gospels of the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Instead of the suffering, human, Son of God, they depicted a divine being whose mysterious sayings revealed the secrets to immortality.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/ztxsg82

 

[Grandliseur]

There is no mention of new chosen people in the OT, and because of significant errors, we cannot trust the NT.

Hosea 1:10 . . .And it must occur that in the place in which it used to be said to them, ‘YOU men are not my people,’ it will be said to them, ‘The sons of the living God.’
Romans 9:26 and in the place where it was said to them, ‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
1 Peter 2:10 For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.​

You have the right to do as you like. I know my Bible forwards and backwards, how the OT fits with the NT. While the OT supposedly contains about 300 plus prophesies about Jesus, it is in the NT we read how they were fulfilled.

Once you dismiss the NT, and you kind of have dismissed them all since in many you can find it said that Jesus is 'the son of God', there is little I can bring to the table. Except perhaps that you endanger your own salvation.

Ephesians 2:14-16 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake. . .​

--------
Edit:
I should mention Daniel 7 and Ps 72 and perhaps other scriptures that show that the kingdom of heavens is going to be the entire earth. If that is so, only people God permit to live will exist there. This will not be just Jews for sure.

​

 

[Repox]

Hosea 1:10 . . .And it must occur that in the place in which it used to be said to them, ‘YOU men are not my people,’ it will be said to them, ‘The sons of the living God.’
Romans 9:26 and in the place where it was said to them, ‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
1 Peter 2:10 For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.​

You have the right to do as you like. I know my Bible forwards and backwards, how the OT fits with the NT. While the OT supposedly contains about 300 plus prophesies about Jesus, it is in the NT we read how they were fulfilled.

Once you dismiss the NT, and you kind of have dismissed them all since in many you can find it said that Jesus is 'the son of God', there is little I can bring to the table. Except perhaps that you endanger your own salvation.

Ephesians 2:14-16 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake. . .
​

I have read those OT verses purported to be about the son of God. It is interesting, they are figurative interpretations, not literal. Which means you can apply a number of different meanings. As an example, what you posted refers to "sons" not "a son." Sons can mean many who serve the Lord God. I have read numerous accounts of various NT subjects found in OT verses, but, as I mentioned, they are figurative interpretations. One can find a multitude of meanings in the context of "figurative interpretations." If there is a "literal interpretation" for the son of God in the OT, post it. I have not found one.

 

[Grandliseur]

I have read those OT verses purported to be about the son of God. It is interesting, they are figurative interpretations, not literal. Which means you can apply a number of different meanings. As an example, what you posted refers to "sons" not "a son." Sons can mean many who serve the Lord God. I have read numerous accounts of various NT subjects found in OT verses, but, as I mentioned, they are figurative interpretations. One can find a multitude of meanings in the context of "figurative interpretations." If there is a "literal interpretation" for the son of God in the OT, post it. I have not found one.

OK. I will give you a few, and they are not figurative ones:

Angles are sons of God
Job 38:4-7 4 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding. 5 Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line? 6 Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down, Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
Psalm 89:6-7 6 For who in the skies can be compared to Jehovah? Who can resemble Jehovah among the sons of God? 7 God is to be held in awe among the intimate group of holy ones; He is grand and fear-inspiring over all who are round about him.
The saints shall become sons of God by heavenly resurrection
Matthew 5:9 9 “Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’
Romans 8:19 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.

Jesus is 'son of God' and is also the firstborn, different subject:​

Matthew 2:15 says: and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt I called my son."


How many scriptures in the OT talk about God's son?

Hos 11:1: When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.


Here Israel refers to Jesus ! Interesting!


In Exodus 4:22 Israel is called God's firstborn. So while the latter part of Hosea 11:1 could be separated from the first phrase, it becomes clear that the whole verse may be referring to Jesus.


Ex 4:22: Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the Lord, Israel is my firstborn son . . .


Other places:


Ps 2:6,7: "6 As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill. 7 I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.


72:1: Give the king your justice, O God, and your righteousness to the royal son!


Prov 30:7: Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!


Finally, one more place is known to refer to God's son:


Isaiah 9:6:For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


These are the known places where God's son is mentioned in the OT.


Ps 80:17: Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, Upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. (Psalm 80:17 ASV)

I also will make him my first-born, The highest of the kings of the earth. (Psalm 89:27 ASV)​

Hope this helps.

​

 

[Tumah]

Hosea 1:10 . . .And it must occur that in the place in which it used to be said to them, ‘YOU men are not my people,’ it will be said to them, ‘The sons of the living God.’

I don't know how you are reading this verse, but what it's saying is that while previously people would say that the Jews are not G-d's people. Now however, they would call the Jews "the sons of the Living G-d" in recognition that they are.

 

[Grandliseur]

I don't know how you are reading this verse, but what it's saying is that while previously people would say that the Jews are not G-d's people. Now however, they would call the Jews "the sons of the Living G-d" in recognition that they are.

I believe I quoted other scriptures?!

The point is that once we go into the NT, the problem disappears:

1 Peter 2:9-10 9 But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.​

In this scripture, James clearly refers to the Christian community scattered about, thus showing us that Spiritual Israel is God's nation:

James 1: 1 James, a slave of God and of [the] Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes that are scattered about:. . .
​

Here Paul shows us that Jews and Gentiles now are one people, Israel

Ephesians 2:12-16 . . .. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself.
Israel of the flesh is not Israel:
Romans 9:6-8 6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise . . .
A Jew is not one just because of being a Jew of the flesh:
Romans 2:27-29 . . .. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
​

Thus we come to the teaching that God's Israel is not of the flesh but is of the spirit, by baptism into Christ.
Including this once more below but beginning from v. 6 to show that it is depending on faith in Jesus. The physical nation of Israel did not depend on faith in Jesus!

In Peter we see that those who put faith in Jesus are the ones who become God's holy nation. Fleshly Israel has no faith in Jesus:

1 Peter 2:6-10 . . .: “Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment.” 7 It is to YOU, therefore, that he is precious, because YOU are believers; but to those not believing, “the identical stone that the builders rejected has become [the] head of [the] corner,” 8 and “a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense.” These are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were also appointed. 9 But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.​

If you know your Bible, you will know that God promised to bless Abraham so that through him, the nations would be saved.

Genesis 26:3-4 . . ., 4 ‘And I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and I will give to your seed all these lands; and by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves,’​

In this way, through Jesus, Abraham's seed, the nations of the earth, the gentiles, have the means to become part of God's spiritual Israel.

​

​

 

[Tumah]

How many scriptures in the OT talk about God's son?

Hos 11:1: When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.


Here Israel refers to Jesus ! Interesting!

In Exodus 4:22 Israel is called God's firstborn. So while the latter part of Hosea 11:1 could be separated from the first phrase, it becomes clear that the whole verse may be referring to Jesus.


Ex 4:22: Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the Lord, Israel is my firstborn son . . .

First of all, Hosea 11:1 is clearly referencing Ex. 4:22. I mean, that's pretty clear. And Ex. 4:22 is clearly talking about the nation of Israel who was in Egypt.
Contextually as well, Hosea is referring to the nation of Israel. The first verse talks about how G-d called us out of Egypt with love (by calling us his son) and yet, (in the following verse) the more He called to us, the more we worshiped idols.

It's very clearly talking about the nation of Israel. And frankly I find it astounding that you can read it otherwise.

Other places:

Ps 2:6,7: "6 As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill. 7 I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.

This is David. The one who was made king on Mt. Zion and wrote these words...

72:1: Give the king your justice, O God, and your righteousness to the royal son!

This is referring to Solomon. The son of the king...

Prov 30:7: Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!

His name is Moses. He had two sons.

Finally, one more place is known to refer to God's son:

Isaiah 9:6:For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

It's people talking. Someone's going to have a baby. It says nothing about this child being the son of G-d.

[quoteThese are the known places where God's son is mentioned in the OT.


Ps 80:17: Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, Upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. (Psalm 80:17 ASV)[/QUOTE]
Son of man (lit. son of Adam) is one of the ways to say "mankind". Adam, Enosh, son of Adam and son of Enosh are all used to refer to mankind.
See Psalm 8:5 and 144:3 for a comparison.
It can be used as a collective noun or to refer to individuals.

 

[Tumah]

I believe I quoted other scriptures?!

The point is that once we go into the NT, the problem disappears:

1 Peter 2:9-10 9 But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.​

In this scripture, James clearly refers to the Christian community scattered about, thus showing us that Spiritual Israel is God's nation:

James 1: 1 James, a slave of God and of [the] Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes that are scattered about:. . .
​

Here Paul shows us that Jews and Gentiles now are one people, Israel

Ephesians 2:12-16 . . .. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself.
Israel of the flesh is not Israel:
Romans 9:6-8 6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise . . .
A Jew is not one just because of being a Jew of the flesh:
Romans 2:27-29 . . .. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
​

Thus we come to the teaching that God's Israel is not of the flesh but is of the spirit, by baptism into Christ.
Including this once more below but beginning from v. 6 to show that it is depending on faith in Jesus. The physical nation of Israel did not depend on faith in Jesus!

In Peter we see that those who put faith in Jesus are the ones who become God's holy nation. Fleshly Israel has no faith in Jesus:

1 Peter 2:6-10 . . .: “Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment.” 7 It is to YOU, therefore, that he is precious, because YOU are believers; but to those not believing, “the identical stone that the builders rejected has become [the] head of [the] corner,” 8 and “a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense.” These are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were also appointed. 9 But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.​

​

Yes, ok. It seemed as though you were suggesting that the Tanach itself implied your statements rather than that you were imposing NT theology onto passages in the Tanach. My mistake.

If you know your Bible, you will know that God promised to bless Abraham so that through him, the nations would be saved.

Genesis 26:3-4 . . ., 4 ‘And I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and I will give to your seed all these lands; and by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves,’​

In this way, through Jesus, Abraham's seed, the nations of the earth, the gentiles, have the means to become part of God's spiritual Israel.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the difference between eisegesis and exegesis. In the latter, you derive your theology from the text. In the former, you impose your theology on the text.

So for instance in this case of Gen. 26:4 no explanation of the form of blessing is present in the text, yet somehow you've managed to determine that it must be referring to salvation. There are lots of blessings handed out in the Tanach, yet somehow you've managed to interpret this otherwise vague blessing to something specific. It doesn't seem as though you've done it with the help of other passages from Tanach, so I wonder why your opening statement made it sound as though this should be an obvious interpretation.

 

[Grandliseur]

First of all, Hosea 11:1 is clearly referencing Ex. 4:22. I mean, that's pretty clear. And Ex. 4:22 is clearly talking about the nation of Israel who was in Egypt.
Contextually as well, Hosea is referring to the nation of Israel. The first verse talks about how G-d called us out of Egypt with love (by calling us his son) and yet, (in the following verse) the more He called to us, the more we worshiped idols.

It's very clearly talking about the nation of Israel. And frankly I find it astounding that you can read it otherwise.


This is David. The one who was made king on Mt. Zion and wrote these words...


This is referring to Solomon. The son of the king...



His name is Moses. He had two sons.



It's people talking. Someone's going to have a baby. It says nothing about this child being the son of G-d.

[quoteThese are the known places where God's son is mentioned in the OT.


Ps 80:17: Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, Upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. (Psalm 80:17 ASV)
Son of man (lit. son of Adam) is one of the ways to say "mankind". Adam, Enosh, son of Adam and son of Enosh are all used to refer to mankind.
See Psalm 8:5 and 144:3 for a comparison.
It can be used as a collective noun or to refer to individuals.

Your rejection of the scripture in Proverbs is actually funny. You will obviously go to any length to believe differently. Can you really say that this is about Moses: "4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth?"

There is only one who fits this, God. That's your problem.

Well, when you reject what the NT says, and on top put your own interpretation into the OT scriptures, we cannot really say we are on the same page, now or in the future. Not much to discuss then.
Rejecting Jesus as God's son is not the path to salvation, but that is your problem.

 

[Tumah]

Your rejection of the scripture in Proverbs is actually funny. You will obviously go to any length to believe differently. Can you really say that this is about Moses: "4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth?"

There is only one who fits this, God. That's your problem.

Sure it is. Moses went up to heaven to get the Commandments. Then he came back down with them. He "gathered the wind in his fist" when he gathered the ash from the furnace and throwing it in the air, caused it to cover the entire land of Egypt. He "bound the waters in his garment" when he split the sea. And he established the earth when he built the Tabernacle, establishing the purpose of creation in service of G-d.

That's why the following verse speaks about the sayings of G-d. Moses was the one who brought them to us.

Well, when you reject what the NT says, and on top put your own interpretation into the OT scriptures, we cannot really say we are on the same page, now or in the future. Not much to discuss then.
Rejecting Jesus as God's son is not the path to salvation, but that is your problem.

This it not my own interpretation. This is simply reading what it says. It's the NT that is clearly being used to re-interpret these Scriptures as they already make sense without imposing NT theology onto them.

 

[Grandliseur]

Sure it is. Moses went up to heaven to get the Commandments. Then he came back down with them. He "gathered the wind in his fist" when he gathered the ash from the furnace and throwing it in the air, caused it to cover the entire land of Egypt. He "bound the waters in his garment" when he split the sea. And he established the earth when he built the Tabernacle, establishing the purpose of creation in service of G-d.

That's why the following verse speaks about the sayings of G-d. Moses was the one who brought them to us.


This it not my own interpretation. This is simply reading what it says. It's the NT that is clearly being used to re-interpret these Scriptures as they already make sense without imposing NT theology onto them.

As I said, what you believe is up to you. However, it leaves no common ground.

You: "as they already make sense without imposing NT"
Isaiah 9:6 speaks of a son who becomes a mighty god.

It's people talking. Someone's going to have a baby. It says nothing about this child being the son of G-d.

Your explaining away of this : "and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. " is also very poor.

 

[Tumah]

As I said, what you believe is up to you. However, it leaves no common ground.

Compromising theological integrity in favor of common ground is not something I'm interested in.

You: "as they already make sense without imposing NT"
Isaiah 9:6 speaks of a son who becomes a mighty god.

Your explaining away of this : "and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. " is also very poor.

You only think so because you've convinced yourself it must be about G-d. Ask yourself why you have no problem believing that Abimelech (king father) wasn't a god, but Abiad (eternal father) must be? Why do you agree that Elijah (G-d YHW) wasn't a god, but Elgibor (G-d Mighty) must be?

There is absolutely no problem for a regular person to have these names because like many, many Jewish names, they are used to praise G-d. Not as a description of the person.

 

[Repox]

OK. I will give you a few, and they are not figurative ones:

Angles are sons of God
Job 38:4-7 4 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding. 5 Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line? 6 Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down, Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
Psalm 89:6-7 6 For who in the skies can be compared to Jehovah? Who can resemble Jehovah among the sons of God? 7 God is to be held in awe among the intimate group of holy ones; He is grand and fear-inspiring over all who are round about him.
The saints shall become sons of God by heavenly resurrection
Matthew 5:9 9 “Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’
Romans 8:19 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.

Compromising theological integrity in favor of common ground is not something I'm interested in.


You only think so because you've convinced yourself it must be about G-d. Ask yourself why you have no problem believing that Abimelech (king father) wasn't a god, but Abiad (eternal father) must be? Why do you agree that Elijah (G-d YHW) wasn't a god, but Elgibor (G-d Mighty) must be?

There is absolutely no problem for a regular person to have these names because like many, many Jewish names, they are used to praise G-d. Not as a description of the person.

Jesus is 'son of God' and is also the firstborn, different subject:​

Matthew 2:15 says: and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt I called my son."


How many scriptures in the OT talk about God's son?

Hos 11:1: When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.


Here Israel refers to Jesus ! Interesting!


In Exodus 4:22 Israel is called God's firstborn. So while the latter part of Hosea 11:1 could be separated from the first phrase, it becomes clear that the whole verse may be referring to Jesus.


Ex 4:22: Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the Lord, Israel is my firstborn son . . .


Other places:


Ps 2:6,7: "6 As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill. 7 I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.


72:1: Give the king your justice, O God, and your righteousness to the royal son!


Prov 30:7: Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!


Finally, one more place is known to refer to God's son:


Isaiah 9:6:For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


These are the known places where God's son is mentioned in the OT.


Ps 80:17: Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, Upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. (Psalm 80:17 ASV)

I also will make him my first-born, The highest of the kings of the earth. (Psalm 89:27 ASV)​

Hope this helps.

​

Here are my rebuttals to your false claims for the son of God in the Old Testament.


RE: Job 38 4-7. It has nothing to do with the son of God reference. It makes no mention of “son of God,” it is about the LORD and His creation.

RE: Hosea 11:1. It is about “Israel.” It says regarding Israel, “When ISRAEL was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my SON.” (Hosea 11:1)

RE: Exodus 4:22. Sorry, but this a huge stretch. Again, the verses are about ISREAL. “Israel is my firstborn son.” (Exodus 4:22).

RE: Psalms 2:6,7. It is “obvious,” it is about the author of the verse, he is the son.. “He said to me, You are my Son, today I have become your Father.” (Psalm 2:7).

RE: Psalms 72:1. It is a prayer for a king, not the son of God. “Endow the king with your Justice, O God, the royal son of your righteousness.” (Psalm 72).

RE: Proverbs 30:7 Here you have made a big mistake, the verse clearly states who the son is. “The sayings of Agur son of Jakeh—an oracle.” (Proverbs 30:1) The sayings are thirty verses long (Proverbs 30:1-33).

RE: Isaiah 9:6. This verse has been used by others to link the OT with NT gospels about the son of God. It is the only quotation you have presented that is close to being authentic. However, if you read verses of the chapter closely, you will clearly see it is about David’s son to rule over Israel. It is amazing how people distort OT scripture to secure their ends. The verses are about a king ruling Israel. “For to us a child is born, to us a child is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with Justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.” (Isaiah 9:6-7). If you notice, references are to David’s son. It is all about the new King for the nation of Israel.

I would think Jews would be upset about how much their holy books have been misused by Christians.

RE: Psalms 80:17. “Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.” If you read material about historical context of this passage, you will find it was Israel’s PRAYER for restoration after Israel had been ravaged by a foreign power.

RE: Psalms 89:27. “I will also appoint my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.” Again, we have a prayer. It mourns the downfall of the Davidic dynasty and pleads for restoration. In the verse, "firstborn" refers to David’s son as king of Israel.

Again, it is amazing to find the extend of abuse of Jewish scripture to enhance Christianity. We know many Christians have become Anti-Semitic. We also know what European Christians thought about Hitler’s extermination of Jews, they stood by and did almost nothing.

Look some more, but you will not find references to the “son of God” in the Old Testament. I think it is one of the best keep secrets of religious history. We also know about the Christian belief that Jews will not be saved because they don't believe in the son of God. Knowing what I know, Judaism is God's religion. It is too bad Jesus movement leaders got it wrong. They would have served the truth better if they had proclaimed Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah (God).

 

[Grandliseur]

RE: Proverbs 30:7 Here you have made a big mistake, the verse clearly states who the son is. “The sayings of Agur son of Jakeh—an oracle.” (Proverbs 30:1) The sayings are thirty verses long (Proverbs 30:1-33)

Quoting again: 3. . .Neither have I the knowledge of the Holy One. 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?​

The only being whom the statements "who hath ascended. . ., who has gathered the wind. .., who hath bound the waters," fit is God; if you read it any other way, you are deliberately fooling yourself. In this then is God, the question is "and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?"

RE: Isaiah 9:6. This verse has been used by others to link the OT with NT gospels about the son of God. It is the only quotation you have presented that is close to being authentic. However, if you read verses of the chapter closely, you will clearly see it is about David’s son to rule over Israel.

Messiah is David's son. That was one absolute prophecy that had to be fulfilled on Messiah. If you read the verse closely, you will see this, ". . .and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. " None but the son of God will become a mighty god -- while not being the Almighty himself.

You choose to disregard this, I don't really care. But, English is English, and the understanding of the phrase is a matter of admitting what it says.

In Psalms 110, David says this, "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” 2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion. . ." [saying. . .(Psalm 110:1-2) 

Just a few lines down in that psalm, this is then said, " 4 Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret):“You are a priest to time indefinite According to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek!”

What we see is that this Lord of David is his own son, the Messiah. David is of the tribe of Judah, yet, here we see that this Lord shall become priest. This means a new covenant! for in the Mosaic covenant only the tribe of Levi had the right to become priests. This tells us that the Jewish system as it was will no longer be; and so it is. It is no longer and never will be again.

If you don't study the scriptures with an openness to admit where it clearly, without doubt, speaks of the things already mentioned you will miss out on God's plan.
Still, you have the right to disagree, and so do I.

 

[Repox]

Quoting again: 3. . .Neither have I the knowledge of the Holy One. 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?​

The only being whom the statements "who hath ascended. . ., who has gathered the wind. .., who hath bound the waters," fit is God; if you read it any other way, you are deliberately fooling yourself. In this then is God, the question is "and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?"



Messiah is David's son. That was one absolute prophecy that had to be fulfilled on Messiah. If you read the verse closely, you will see this, ". . .and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. " None but the son of God will become a mighty god -- while not being the Almighty himself.

You choose to disregard this, I don't really care. But, English is English, and the understanding of the phrase is a matter of admitting what it says.

In Psalms 110, David says this, "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” 2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion. . ." [saying. . .(Psalm 110:1-2) 

Just a few lines down in that psalm, this is then said, " 4 Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret):“You are a priest to time indefinite According to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek!”

What we see is that this Lord of David is his own son, the Messiah. David is of the tribe of Judah, yet, here we see that this Lord shall become priest. This means a new covenant! for in the Mosaic covenant only the tribe of Levi had the right to become priests. This tells us that the Jewish system as it was will no longer be; and so it is. It is no longer and never will be again.

If you don't study the scriptures with an openness to admit where it clearly, without doubt, speaks of the things already mentioned you will miss out on God's plan.
Still, you have the right to disagree, and so do I.

The problem you are having is you are searching for a nonexistent being in the OT. There is no son of God, Jesus was God. Because God influenced Jewish authors writing of those holy scriptures, they would, of course, reflect his divine handprint, and God would not mention a nonexistent being. As I have demonstrated, there is no reference to the son of God in the Old Testament.

You have made the same mistake many other Christians have made, you have turned "FIGURATIVE INTERPRETATIONS" into arguments for a phantom son of God. I demonstrated how you have perverted actual meanings for the purpose of supporting false ideas. Anyone can make figurative interpretations say just about anything. Why don't you understand?

Like other Christians, you pervert scripture in order to propose false ideas. OT verses say what they say, the literal meaning of what they say, not perverted meanings. If others followed your example, no would believe the written word of God. They would all say, it doesn't say that, it says what I want it to say.

As an example, you state, "What we see is that this Lord of David is his own son, the Messiah. David is of the tribe of Judah, yet, here we see that this Lord shall become priest. This means a new covenant! for in the Mosaic covenant only the tribe of Levi had the right to become priests. This tells us that the Jewish system as it was will no longer be; and so it is. It is no longer and never will be again." This is a perversion of the actual meaning. There is no verse from David which states "this Lord of David is his own son, the Messiah." You, like other Christians have distorted OT verses, they do not say what you say they say! You have become a Christian lawyer, using verbal tricks to distort meanings to support unrelated ideas. The coming of the Messiah, as written throughout the OT, is about the coming of God. Those prophesies were fulfilled with God coming into the world as Jesus.

 

[Grandliseur]

The problem you are having is you are searching for a nonexistent being in the OT. There is no son of God, Jesus was God. Because God influenced Jewish authors writing of those holy scriptures, they would, of course, reflect his divine handprint, and God would not mention a nonexistent being. As I have demonstrated, there is no reference to the son of God in the Old Testament.

You have made the same mistake many other Christians have made, you have turned "FIGURATIVE INTERPRETATIONS" into arguments for a phantom son of God. I demonstrated how you have perverted actual meanings for the purpose of supporting false ideas. Anyone can make figurative interpretations say just about anything. Why don't you understand?

Like other Christians, you pervert scripture in order to propose false ideas. OT verses say what they say, the literal meaning of what they say, not perverted meanings. If others followed your example, no would believe the written word of God. They would all say, it doesn't say that, it says what I want it to say.

As an example, you state, "What we see is that this Lord of David is his own son, the Messiah. David is of the tribe of Judah, yet, here we see that this Lord shall become priest. This means a new covenant! for in the Mosaic covenant only the tribe of Levi had the right to become priests. This tells us that the Jewish system as it was will no longer be; and so it is. It is no longer and never will be again." This is a perversion of the actual meaning. There is no verse from David which states "this Lord of David is his own son, the Messiah." You, like other Christians have distorted OT verses, they do not say what you say they say! You have become a Christian lawyer, using verbal tricks to distort meanings to support unrelated ideas. The coming of the Messiah, as written throughout the OT, is about the coming of God. Those prophesies were fulfilled with God coming into the world as Jesus.

I do not believe the Messiah or Jesus to be God. Neither do I accept the teaching of the Trinity.

If you claim that he is God, then you are contradicting the scripture telling us that no man may see God and live.
Again, you have the right to your opinion. It matter not to me what others believe; however, I do not mind discussing things, and live and let live once the differences become irreconcilable.